alright I think i am done with this discussion. It's not really going anywhere and i am just more and more confused by slon's position.

i never did answer the original question though so I would say first offense should 7-10 years and second offense is life. I am willing to give them a second chance, but if they mess up again their done.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin