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Originally Posted by Steve
So, for that reason, we should keep guns out of the hands of people who are responsible, mentally stable, and well equipped to make such a decision?
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Yes well so far that hasn’t worked. Do you have any suggestions on how we should proceed?
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Originally Posted by Steve
My wife and I were walking home from a movie. We weren't looking for trouble. We were walking home...
I always thought it was pretty damn unlikely.
And then we were attacked...
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And it will happen to people but it won’t happen to most of us. And if it does producing a gun will not necessarily be the best way to deal with it.
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Originally Posted by Steve
Killing them? Maybe not. But often, shooting them is. Whether they die or not as a result is secondary. The main intent in using deadly force is not to kill a person, but to stop them...
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Yeah but in this case EricOKC is definitely of the opinion that
some people need killing. And anyway even shooting them may be unnecessary. And when the general public are making the decisions on what is "necessary" you are going to get a whole wide range of what is “necessary”.
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Originally Posted by Steve
Clearly, you're not the type of person who would feel comfortable being armed. Perhaps you simply don't drust your ability with a firearm. Perhaps you'd prefer to be a victim. Perhaps you simply like to hope for the best when presented with a clear indication that your day is about to take a dramatic turn for the worse. Whatever your reasons, fine. But know this: They're only your reasons.
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This is why we differ so much. I am not arguing from my personal point of view. I would be happy to carry a gun myself. Really. I would like to. I doubt that I would ever have to use it but on the off chance why the fuck not? BUT if I can it follows that unless the rest of society grants me this special privilege then everyone else can. And from what I see of everyone else they tend to behave in ways ranging from barely able to tie their shoes to those I would trust with my life. So the consequences of me carrying a gun on the slight chance I may need it and it would in that instance provide a better outcome than if I never had it, is that I and more importantly society has to deal with the adverse consequences of widespread gun proliferation. And that is the trade off I can’t not justify.
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Originally Posted by Steve
In your situation, I would suggest that you hope for the best, hope your assailants get caught, hope you live, hope you're attackers are convicted, and then hope they get put away.
I'm sure you believe that would work for you.
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In my situation I avoid places and situations I think may be potentially dangerous, I don’t mix with people likely to be involved with others involved in crime or violence, I accept nothing is guaranteed and
"I hope for the best". You too hope for the best. You hope that using your gun is the best outcome.
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Originally Posted by Steve
I, however, and people like me, are not willing to subject our lives, and the lives of our loved ones, to chance. We're willing to accept responsibility for our actions.
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You are still subjecting yourself to chance. To the chance you made the right decision with your gun. The chance drawing it does not make the situation worse or more lethal. I am just as willing to accept my responsibility for not having a weapon and I don’t see that the outcome will necessarily be any worse for me .
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Originally Posted by Steve
Crisis, I shot two people. I think about that every single day. In that thought is the knowledge that I did absolutely, without question, the right thing...
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I don’t doubt you do. It still doesn’t mean that
everyone in a similar situation
will.
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Originally Posted by Steve
Huh? When someone is protecting themself, the situation resulting in death is always a possibility. When those who are properly trained are involved, it may even become a probability.
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What I am saying that in the case where a judge and jury is involved death may not be an optional punishment . Even when someone may richly deserve it.
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Originally Posted by Steve
Your problem is that you're operating from a position that anyone who wants to carry a gun wants to be some kind of gunslinger. That's simply not true. Believe it or not, there really are people on this planet who can own and use a firearm responsibly. Until you can get that through your head, you'll never even see the other side of the issue, much less accept or agree with it.
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Your problem is that
you think I think that way. I am certain there are people on this planet who can own and use a firearm responsibly. Just as I am certain that there are those who are dangerously ill equipped to. And they get them too. And those who can own and use a firearm responsibly can still have accidents or subject their loved ones to situations where they can.
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Originally Posted by Steve
Unfortunately, I don't know what can be said that would break through such a profound level of ignorance...
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Try to loose yours first. That would be an excellent start.