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Old 12-04-2007
SMadsen SMadsen is offline
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Jan 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 3,010

    Denmark

Re: More then one correct religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Perhaps I'm confused, but it looks like you're saying that I must have evidence that the Zeus creature exists before I can go about looking for evidence that it exists.

All I need is the concept of a thing (in this case, I have labeled the concept "Zeus"). It may have come from my own past experiences, from someone else who told me about it or recorded in a book, or in a dream I had. Once I have the concept, I can go about looking for evidence that my concept has a counterpart in reality.
Dilettante, let's start from the bottom here, both in your post and with the problems facing it.

Science is a method with which to arrive at explanations of natural phenomena as they can be observed in the natural world. Popularly speaking, the method starts with an observation and ends up in with an explanation of the observation. Let's forget everything in between for a moment and just look at the basic premises of a scientific explanation: For an observation A there exists one or more phenomena so that it becomes possible to make observation A.

Does this mean that one, more or all of the phenomena held accountable for the observation must be known? No, it doesn't. One does not need to know about mice in order to know that an electrical cable has marks on it as if something has been chewing on it. However, that was NOT your starting point.

You started by saying that mice chew on electrical cables. That statement must be based on the evidential fact that mice exist. If the existence of mice is unknown, evidentially, then your statement is nonsense.

Likewise with your mythical figure, Zeus. If your starting point was that one or more phenomena exist so that lightning bolts that hit people saying "Zeus is ugly" can be observed then you were home free as to the existence of Zeus. However, that was NOT your starting point. You started by saying that "Zeus shoots lightening bolts at people who curse his name" and that very statement necessitates the known existence of Zeus. In other words: It is NOT a way to look for evidence of Zeus' existence but a way to look for evidence of the alleged connection between cursing a specific name and an already factual existence of a character that, as evidence must have already established, is capable of shooting lightning bolts.


Let's try another approach and sum up what you said in a schematic way (I added the one about dark matter for clarity):

Known factual phenomenon: Zeus
Known factual property: Shoots lightning bolts upon people cursing the name of self
Observation: People cursing the name of Zeus hit by lightning bolts
Conclusion: People who are hit must have triggered Zeus' ability to shoot lightning bolts at them

Known factual phenomenon: Mouse
Known factual property: Chews on electrical cables
Observation: Electrical cables with chewing marks
Conclusion: Mice must have come by and made the chewing marks

Known factual phenomenon: Dark matter
Known factual property: Excerts gravitational forces
Observation: Gravitational forces that exceed those of the immediately visible mass in the universe
Conclusion: Dark matter must be invisible

If taking this approach to a scientific quest, the objective becomes very different from what you initially set off to explore. You actually have to have evidential knowledge of the existence of whichever phenomenon that's included in your observation. What need not be included is knowledge of the phenomena that account for the observed phenomena. That's what you set out to explore in the first place. And it does not serve you well to insist on the existence thereof. That's the same as skipping the exploration alltogether and instead filling the gap with pink frogs, dark matter, Zeuses or whatever you feel like filling it with.

If we make this a go instead, i.e. some investigation where you don't need to insist on the existence of anything except what has already been evidentially established to exist in the natural world, it will look like the following.

Known factual phenomenon: Lightning bolts
Known factual property: Lightning bolts cause severe pain or death.
Observation: People hit by lightning bolts when uttering the name of "Zeus" in a derogatory way
Conclusion: ? (please, please inform me of the conclusion you had in mind).

Known factual phenomenon: Mouse (there is nothing wrong with this approach since mouse are known as well as electrical cables are known)
Known factual property: Chews on electrical cables
Observation: Electrical cables with chewing marks
Conclusion: Mice must have come by and made the chewing marks

Known factual phenomenon: Mass
Known factual property: Gravitational force
Observation: Gravitational forces that exceed those of the immediately visible mass in the universe
Conclusion: Mass exists in an amount that accounts for all the gravitional forces observed (let's just call the difference between the total amount and the actually visible amount for dark matter since we can't immediately see it)

Last edited by SMadsen; 12-04-2007 at 05:43 AM.
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