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Originally Posted by liberty1776
Before I begin, let me make it aware that I have never really delved into the idea of whether or not the holacaust happened.
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Then address this question first. If you have "never really delved into the idea", then you are hardly in a position to be starting a general discussion, however reasonable your tone may seem.
By the way - the evidence is overwhelming and not difficult to find.
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There are several reasons for this. First, whether it happened or not, Hitler was a National Socialist and he invaded innocent countries and as a result of this many people dies. So, whether the Holocaust happened or not, Hitler is a jerk.
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A jerk indeed. Somehow, though, "jerk" is not quite the word I would choose. Evil would be a good word to start with. Psychotic would be a helpful word for your vocabulary. Jerk might be a word to describe an annoying friend. Hitler transcends "jerk".
Oh - and by the way - the fact that he did indeed invade many countries and killed many people should not keep you from finding about the Holocaust.
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Second, I have been told my whole life that the Holocaust happened, so I have not doubted it. However, I have had some people who have told me privatly that they do not believe the Holocaust happened as it was said to have happened. For someone like me, who is weak on this area of history, I have come up with some reasons to take the deniers seriously:
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Weak in history? Before you start indulging in conspiracy theories you must address this. It appears to me you are mentally unprotected. Ignorance is not acceptable in this matter.
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1) Science. Every theory, no matter how whacked out it may seem, deserves equal and thoruough treatment. We cannot simply brush uncomfortable ideas under the rug
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Reasonable indeed. However, I find your disingenuous tone despicable.
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2) The US Government has a history of lying to us about "our" enemies. For example, the Civil War was faught by Father Abraham to rid the godless south of slave holding racists, the Lusitania was a purely peaceful ship in international waters and everyone was shocked when it was sunk, the US had no involvment in WWII before Japan attacked, the entire domino theory, Gulf of Tonkin, Saddam has huge stockpiles of WMDs. Why then, do I take the Holacaust stories from my government so seriously? Couldn't they be lying, or exagerating?
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There is a kind of militant stupidity at work here that really is not acceptable. The very notion that the Holocaust was some sort of plot by the American government is not a theory to be considered, but a poisonous fantasy to be crushed under foot.
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3) Most people who bring this up are accused of bein Anti-Semitic. As an empirical issue, this might be true. However, nothing about Holacaust denial suggests a priori that those who deny it hate Jews. Simply dismissing these revisionists as anti-semitic does not count as an argument against them. It is an Ad-Hom attack.
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Quite absurd. Anti-semitism and Holocaust denial are inextricably linked. Do your homework.
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4) In many countries it is illegal to express Holacaust revisionist ideas and in many of the other countries it is illegal de facto, that is, one who brings this topic up will be laughed out of town by most people. Any time something like this is made illegal, I become suspicious. What is there that "they" (whoever that may be) don't want us to know?
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The Holocaust was an extraordinary outpouring of ferocious hatred and evil. The nations responsible for the Holocaust are hardly suppressing anything.
I had the opportunity to visit the Holocaust museum in Berlin last winter. It is quite a stunning experience. It is subtle in its impact, and focuses on the individual stories and lives of people and families rather than on overwhelming numbers. I would strongly encourage a person who is mentally unprotected to view such an exhibit.
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5) Who has gained from the Holacaust? Has Isreal gained from the Holacaust?
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Well, the Jews didn't seem to do very well by it - sorry to interfere with the sheer lunacy of your ideas.
One example: in 1939, Poland was home to about 3 million Jews. By the end of 1945, 99% of them had been murdered and an ancient community had been annihilated.
99%. Do you think the Jews did well?
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6) From the deniers that I know, none of them argue that the Holacaust did not exist. They say that, instead of killing 6 million Jews, Hitler killed 600,000. Neither do they think Hitler was an amiable character. This seems to be a much more reasonable proposition than "the Holacaust never happened."
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Your attempt at sounding reasonable is not convincing. You see, there is a problem here: Where did all those millions of Jews go? The ones that weren't killed, according to you? They seemed to have vanished. At least no one saw them again - except their corpses. So your theory doesn't seems very sensible, does it?
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7) I have heard that after WWI, stories from Germany were that 6 million Jews would have been killed had it not been for the US getting involved in the war. This was used to justify the US's involvment.
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Indeed?
And what is the source for this ruubish? Let me guess: the same sources that believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a realiable historical document?
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OK, so, there you have it.
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What is that we have, exactly?
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What information is there to counteract the deniers. I would imagine that there is a lot, and I would imagine that it does not good inconvincing the deniers.
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But of course you wouldn't be sympathic to the deniers, would you? What information? Try opening a book. Go to the library. Look at the web. Check out a film. The evidence out there is on a massive scale.
So knock it off with the "I'm just an innocent blob of untouched ignorance and want to consider the denial theories from an honest point of view" routine. I am not questioning your untouched ignorance. All of your comments are evidence for that. But is hardly an excuse.
There is plenty of good old-fashioned anti-semitism underneath all this chatter - and not very far underneath.
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For conspicary theorists like these guys, any evidence to the contrary of what they are saying is simply dismissed as being fabricated. And, because they do not deny that at least a lot of Jews (instead of "extra a lot" or "a hell of a lot") were killed, any mass graves can be explained as the graves of the unlucky 600,000.
So, what does everyone think?
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Well, you know what I think. Now scuttle off to the library. It looks like you have a LOT of work to do.