Part 2
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You did not place this in quotes, but I wrote: It was a common theme. NOT ANY MORE! Most Americans today do not suffer racists gladly, any more than any other fool. That attitude is offensive to most Americans, regardless of race. Yes, there are still racists and there is still racism, but it is marginalized and condemned and illegal.
I thought we were talking about America’s history as a meritocracy? Not whether American racism is the same as it was in the 1600s. The reason I keep raising the issue of history is to point out that there’s a thing called tradition in this country. Would you agree?
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That was not a "tradition in this country," it was a habit of consciousness in the whole world. Until the Enlightenment of the West there had not emerged in any broad sense a rational consciousness that questioned that habit of consciousness that accepted the idea of might making right, of physical strengthen determining who were the elite. The ideals of liberty, equality, and freedom
for all were not even considered or contemplated in an agrarian society. In an agrarian society physical power determined who had power. The idea of sharing power in a democratic manner never came into awareness, except in a few places where it briefly rose up and then was squashed by the dominate consciousness of the times. Blacks and women were not oppressed or suppressed, they were not recognized, were not seen as equals worthy of liberty and freedom by the dominate agrarian consciousness of the times.
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What you seem to fail to acknowledge is that American racism wasn’t just about a set of laws. It was deeply ingrained in our country’s history.
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It was a deeply ingrained habit of consciousness on the whole planet.
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While we have made progress, the notion that racism somehow became automatically delinked from American culture and society the moment LBJ signed laws in 1965 defies everything we know about how history works in a large nation. Change happens VERY slowly and the longer the ingrained culture, the more difficult the change is.
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To say that racism was ingrained in American culture implies that at one time it wasn't a part of human culture sometime in the past. What you are doing is projecting your moral sense, your post-Enlightenment rational consciousness onto a culture (early America) and a time that had not evolved that rational consciousness except in the few highly evolved individuals, who thankfully happened to be the founding fathers of America who laid the seeds of it unfoldment.
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Yes Hillary Clinton was able to run for president this year, but it’s still acceptable to say that you fear for your balls when she comes around on national television, because strong women castrate men right?
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That is plain and simply, insulting and wrong. You are projecting your "idea" of what you believe conservatives believe. I am attracted to strong women and have no patience for the delicate subservant submissive flower. My wife is not an amazon and she has little patience for the extreme feminist, but she is not a Suzy homemaker. She is a well educated woman who happens to have a black belt in martial arts (thankfully so do I
). While she is an incredible baker, I am a chef by training and do all of the cooking in our home. Currently I am the main stay-at-home parent for our son Nathanael. Trying to pigeonhole me in a stereotype of your own making will not work.
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Yes, Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee, but African American men represent the vast majority of people in jail for non-violent drug offenses despite high rates of drug use among white populations.
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The majority of people in jail are in jail, because they broke the law. It does not help that in the African-American community the majority of homes have no father present. Thanks to the liberal welfare programs of LBJ the African-American family was basically destroyed.
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Indeed, my logic here is very similar to your logic of “cycles” in history.
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Ah ... no.
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One system of racism goes away, but new ones rise to take their place. And with each progression it becomes more and more difficult to openly articulate racism, it however, does not mean that racism goes away.
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No. A rational consciousness emerged that could, for the first time, recognize the inequities of slavery. Prior to that there was no conscious system of racism. But because of identity politics and postmodern truths taken to the extreme, those on the left in their cynicism and suspicion refuse to recognize that any kind of systemic racism ended years ago. The left claims that racism has gone underground and become the hidden agenda of talk radio and the Republican Party with their subtle code words. Plain and simple --that's garbage.
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The social order of today does not accept or condone white on black violence as acceptable.
I didn’t say it did. If you’ll notice my main point was talking about how people who articulate principles of black self-defense are called “crazy.”
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Who calls anyone articulating principles of self-defense crazy? I would call someone who articulates the idea that America is a racist country founded on the ideal of white supremacy "nuts" and "wrong," but not crazy in the clinical sense.
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Doesn’t mean that anti-racist legislation is a bad thing.
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Anti-racist legislation is dumb. Too often it is determined on the basis of hurt feelings or perceived intention. Motive should not be a factor in determining punishment, guilt and the magnitude of the crime (the act) should be. Other than solving a crime and helping to determine guilt during a trial, motivation is unimportant. Also, it has been used too often for political reasons rather than real legal considerations. A person who commits a violent crime needs to be punished for the violence, their action, their behavior -- not their motivation, their thoughts, not their ideas about the victim.
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Each generation got a little closer to the mark of that ideal.
How quaintly you put it.
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Do you deny that those who were once considered unworthy are now given legal protection and rights that were once denied them? Do you not acknowledge that this has happened over time with each generation coming closer to the ideal of liberty, equality, justice, and freedom for all?
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What happened was that African American resisted racism and white Americans fought to maintain white supremacy until they were, quite literally, shamed into signing a set of laws.
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No. What happened was a new consciousness emerged that was able to recognize the inequities of slavery and then worked and fought to change the status quo of the times. The majority of abolitionists who worked to end slavery were white. The majority of those who worked the Underground Railroad were white. The majority who fought and died for the Union in the Civil War were white. And this blame game gets us nowhere.
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But at what point did those white Americans who came out en masse to prevent James Meredith from entering college or who bombed black public housing residents in Chicago who moved into “white neighborhoods in the fiftes” when did those people actually change how they felt about African Americans? Can you “prove” that? Can you demonstrate some evidence of that?
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Most of "those people" are either dead or in the old folks home. Who protect James Meredith and enforced the law? U.S. Marshals, white guys. Why was the Civil Rights Amendment able to pass? Because the majority of Americans were offended with what they saw on TV and read in
Travels with Charlie.
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All I saw is that the vast majority of folks moved away from the inner city so they wouldn’t have to integrate.
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Or because the crime rates were raising in the inner city.
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They began putting their kids in private schools to avoid the black and brown inner cities.
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Opposition to Affirmative Action isn’t new, it existed from the MOMENT those laws were put into place.
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A dumb idea even if it well intentioned is still a dumb idea.
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Can you think of any moment in American history when the majority of whites were presented with the realities of racism and they responded with “yeah, that’s wrong, we should change that.”
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When the majority of white Americans (mostly in Northern states) watched with horror the treatment of African-Americans in the South. Watching local police use fire hoses and dogs on African-Americans during peaceful protests offended most white Americans.
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You happen to love MLK. I’m not sure how old you are but why don’t you go back and read the letters page in TIME magazine when they named MLK their person of the year in 1963. They devoted PAGES to the hate mail they got from all over the nation. North and south. The burden of proof is actually on you here because the vast majority of evidence suggests that American racism is systemic and deeply ingrained. Not the other way around.
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Yet, TIME magazine still named MLK their person of the year. Yet, the Civil Rights Amendment became law. Yet, with every generation a greater number of people believe in the principles of liberty, equality, and freedom for ALL PEOPLES. History is my proof.
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but prior to the Civil War it was really more of a problem of one group seeking to protect their economic security than a situation of racism as we have come to know it today.
Can you better explain what you mean here? I don't want to assume you’re saying something that you are not. And I’m having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one.
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I explained this above. Hopefully your brain has grasped what I mean and my brain has articulate it better.
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Because of Affirmative Action the white guy will be fired due to lack of performance faster than the minority or the women. Why? Because the white guy cannot claim that he was fired because of his race or gender.
Can you “prove” that anymore than I can “prove” that unproductive white men often maintain their jobs or merely get reassigned to some other job? Until you can “prove it” you’re not really any better than me on this aspect of the debate.
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Experience. I have worked in the business world (mostly the restaurant business) rather than lived in the academic world and it is pretty much a standard view that affects policy in hiring and firing. This is particularly the case with corporation rather than small businesses. Affirmative Action does more harm to the Civil Rights Movement.
Affirmative Action Fraud: Can We Restore the American Civil Rights Vision?
Michigan Case Reveals Truth About Preferences
Handicapping Freedom: The Americans with Disabilities Act
Hoover Institution - Policy Review - The Quota Czars
Hoover Institution - Hoover Digest - Racial Quotas in College Admissions: A Critique of the Bowen and Bok Study
Hoover Institution - Policy Review - Smart Women, Foolish Quotas
Hoover Institution - Uncommon Knowledge with Peter Robinson - MIND THE GAP: The Racial Gap in Education
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Yep, Affirmative Action does help create feelings of resentment. And with Affirmative Action there will always be a sense or a feeling of do they "deserve" it. Which is probably why the creators of South Park named the child of the one African-American family living in South Park, "Token."
And again, remind me of that moment in American history when access for African Americans didn’t have to be forced down the throats of a resisting white populace?
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And what group did that forcing down the throats of the resistant white populace? A white group, white individuals who believed strongly enough and had the courage to face down the screams of "N*** Lover" "Race Traitor," and the violence of those whites still stuck in the consciousness of the past. If there had not been whites who stepped forward to end slavery, slavery would not have ended. If there had not been whites who stepped forward with MLK to end segregation, segregation would not have ended.
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And the guys behind south park know about as much American history as you do.
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Nice way to finish our conversation. Sad really since I am so enjoying this debate. Now on to the next long one.
tashi deleks,
M