I actually wrote this last, but decide to put it first. It might cut to the chase a bit: I guess one thing I'd like to know is whether you recognize the point of the enumeration of the powers, the notion of limited government. Because I suspect that's the source of the confusion. If you don't see the listed powers as an exclusive list, and rather as a starting that can be expanded for anything that "generally welfary", then THAT's the issue we're actually discussing.
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I'm not familiar with the details of what Hamilton did in that context and don't want to defend it without that knowledge, especially considering what I do know of the man. But we basically agree that the phrase "provide for the general welfare" is not a power in itself but a limitation on a power. Where we disagree, is that I say it is a limitation on the power to spend, where you say it's a limitation on the power to tax.
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Whether it's a limitation on taxing, or spending, is immaterial. The issue is whether the power to tax implies another power; the power to spend outside the implementation of the enumerated powers.
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But unless the power to spend is implied by the power to tax, that limitation on the power to tax makes no sense.
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Why not? You keep saying this, but other powers obviously imply spending. We don't need to make up a new one for the limitations to make sense. They're saying: "They can tax to support the functions of government, as long as they're providing for the defense or general welfare of the nation. In other words, even though they can tax us to raise an army, they can't tax us to fight a war that isn't actually defending us. Or they can tax us to run the post office, or regulate commerce, as long as it provides for the general welfare.
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A tax, by itself, is never in service to the general welfare; rather, it's a necessary cost of other actions of the government which are in service to the general welfare. If we could have those actions without taxes, we'd be better off. Unfortunately, that's not possible, so we empower the government to tax.
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Right, that's more or less what I'm saying... But this in no way lets them off the hook as far as restricting those other actions to the enumerated powers.
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Once again, you need to look at where that semicolon actually appears, and what you are arguing here. You are actually saying that the power to tax, which implies the power to spend, is a separate power, and that is exactly where we disagree. (Of course, you're also saying that "provide for the general welfare" is NOT a separate power, but that's NOT where we disagree.)
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Where we disagree is that you're saying the power to tax implies a separate power to spend. And that that must be the case because the power to tax would make no sense without the power to spend. But the power to spend is already there. It's implied by the enumerated powers that require spending. The power to tax doesn't imply a power to spend, it doesn't need to. Spending is already implied by the other powers.
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I was not making that contention. I was saying, rather, that each of the powers other than this one authorizes acts of government OTHER than spending (possibly excepting the army and navy one). Consider:
"To borrow money on the credit of the United States"
This is not encompassed by the power to spend money.
"To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;"
Nor is this. It requires legislative powers, not just fiscal ones.
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I don't understand where you're going with this. Obviously there's more to governing than spending money. So what?
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Is it not obvious that every one of these powers transcends the power to spend money?
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Of course it's obvious. Are you standing on your head?
'cause you're looking this exactly backwards. These powers encompass the power to spend, not the other way around.
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So this is not an unlimited power. But neither is it a power which in itself is nonexistent, as some would have it.
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The leap I don't get, is how you end up with the notion that the power to spend, regardless of whether it's implied by the power to tax, or the other enumerated powers, is exempt from the limitations placed on government powers through enumeration.
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I hope this clarifies what I've been saying.
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A little bit. Thanks for starting the new thread.