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Originally Posted by Frank
Well I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I believe that no man should ever have to face a quasi-judicial tribunal and/or a court of law because of their ideological or political views especially ones made in good faith. Now, Fraser may have placed his foot in his mouth but I genuinely believe that he believed what he wrote…
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We'll have to disagree on this one, but it's been good going through it again, rounding off the rough edges we clashed over earlier.
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Originally Posted by Frank
The fact that those views may be incorrect or exaggerated along with possibly being offensive does not in my Americanised view change my position on the matter.
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I guess my view isn't Americanised enough for you. I feel his words are actions with consequences, and he should be responsible for their actions.
It's the classic rights vs responsibilty payoff.
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Originally Posted by Frank
Such views should be combated in the public arena with debate and/or in academic circles. I would rather all people have their say whether they are Stalinists or Neo-Nazi’s while allowing society to judge their message.
That is my take on this and it will likely not change in the near future.
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Fair enough. I'm all for people having a say, for freedom of speech, but I think encouraging people to thinking a little critically about their claims before opening their mouths, particularly in public forums on sensitive topics, isn't a bad thing, rather than having people free reign to spout out offensive misinformation merely on the grounds they happen to believe it.
Yes, lets agree to disagree.
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Originally Posted by Frank
I do seem to have some backing from a study published in Royal Economic Society's Economic Journal. Again I am not claiming that this is etched in stone...
LONDON: Nature, not nurture, is the main determinant of how well children perform at school and university, according to a study to be published this week.
The researchers came to their conclusion by comparing how well adopted children did at school when they were brought up alongside parents' biological children. The relative effects of genes and the home environment were then separated out. Previous studies have suggested that the home environment, and in particular the level of family income, is the most important determinant of educational attainment.
But the new study, to be published in the Royal Economic Society's Economic Journal, will argue that while income and home environment account for about 25 per cent of educational attainment, inherited intelligence is responsible for the rest.
SOURCE: ‘Good genes beat good homes as guide to pupils’ school success – Times Online UK – November 6, 2005.
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Firstly there is no mention in that article of race whatsoever. So if you have retarded genes chances are your children will too, whether you are black or white. No surprise there.
Now look at this sentence:
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But the new study, to be published in the Royal Economic Society’s Economic Journal, will argue that while income and home environment account for about 25% of educational attainment, inherited intelligence is responsible for the rest.
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There is a gaping hole, a glaring weakness in this statement. I don't know if it was from a dickhead journo or a dickhead academic, but one of them is probably a dickhead, and I suspect it is the journo. See if you can guess what the weakness is.
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Originally Posted by Frank
Second the increase of intelligence quotient scores over decades or years is referred to as the Flynn Effect if I am not mistaken?
The big problem with this theory is it is not a constant. According to a recent 2005 study by Owens and Teesdale 500,000 Danes illustrated that the decade by decade increase of Intelligence Quotient scores beginning in the 1950’s has not only peaked but reverted back to pre-1991 levels. A similar study by Professor Philip Adey and Professor Michael Shayer showed a similar regression in IQ scores in the United Kingdom in a study of IQ tests over a three year period and compared to results from the mid-1990's and 1976.
Now I fully support Owens research! He is right! I believe that the IQ’s of Danes and Brits have stopped going up! Why? The Danes were dumb enough not to realise the Mohammed Cartoon fiasco would have pissed off the Muslim world as it did and the Brits keep electing Tony Blair and New Labour into power. If this is not evidence of a decrease in IQ I do not know what is!  |
I think the Poms have turned the corner, but I reserve my judgement until after the next Ashes series. The Danes are foever a lost cause, but they make good enough pastry for me to excuse their limitations.
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Originally Posted by Frank
All kidding aside though one cannot assume that population groups across the board will continue to increase in IQ based on the theoretical Flynn Effect. We cannot assume that in 50 years time that Sudanese who have an average IQ of 72 according to Prof. Richard Lynn will have IQ’s in the high 80’s or 90’s based on a theory that lacks consistency.
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Firstly, we should never assume anything, and few theories in social science are ever constant. Like you said, these theories are not etched in stone.
Now I believe the gains in IQ are mostly in the lower half of the distribution and gradually decreased from low to high IQ. This holds well for those on the "nurture" side of the debate, it explains how the Danes and Poms IQ's have effectively plateaued, and the gains made by blacks over the last century. I personally contend black IQ's will reach and plateau at around the same level a decade or two after the highly seemingly unlikely event of their educations ever being funded equally. Until such a time it would be a mistake to prescribe the difference to genetic differences, especially given the gains in black IQ's have followed the gains in their share of the education fnding pie.
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Originally Posted by Frank
The gap stopped bridging in the 1980's. The Flynn Effect if an accurate may have peaked for the African Americans at that point. Professor Richard Lynn estimated the peak was in 1989 if I am not mistaken...
CHICAGO—The achievement gap between African-Americans and whites, which narrowed for much of the 20th century, has stalled and is likely to persist for generations unless something is done to improve the learning experiences of African-American children, contends new research at the University of Chicago. Derek Neal, Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago, is the author of an upcoming chapter, “Why Has Black-White Skill Convergence Stopped?” to be published later this year in the Handbook of Economics of Education.
In the chapter, Neal traces the educational progress of African Americans during the 20th century. He argues that the experience of the past 15 years is an ominous departure from the pattern of sustained progress observed throughout most of the 20th century.
The 1940 Census is the first source of national data on educational attainment, and Neal points out that the black-white education gap among young adults fell steadily from 1940 to 1990. In 1990, however, black-white convergence in educational attainment stopped. “Among men and women ages 26 to 30 in 2000, the black-white educational attainment gap is slightly larger than the corresponding gap in 1990,” he said.
Scores on standardized tests follow a similar pattern. “From the late 1970s through the late 1980s, black children made striking gains in achievement while scores for white children remained relatively flat,” Neal said, but test score gaps among 9- and 13-year-olds stopped closing in the late 1980s.
SOURCE: 'Black-White Achievement Gap Has Stopped Narrowing' - AScribe Newswire - Apr. 28, 2005.
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You'll notice the words I put in bold. Despite gains over the last century, the average educational environment of blacks simply isn't as rich as that of whites. You can safely assume black IQ scores will plateau lower than white scores whilst their education remain less a priority than whites, and by and large the US education funding pattern reflects this. So of course these differences in IQ and SAT scores will persist, and there is seemingly a much more valid reason for them than racial differences.
I contend you give them a decade of equal education and opportunity, they'll get equal scores.
Jerry