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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas
A bit impatient Oleg? Your page long post does need a certain time to respond to. Hopefully I am allowed to do something else than posting on USPO all day too.
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You've just found the time to answer to the next poster after me, in the tone as if you haven't seen my post at all. Last time when we met in forum (we discussed the Sakhalin oil projects and Dutch Shell problems) you left my questions unanswered. No problem, you might have had more important things to do - I merely wanted to be sure this time that my post wasn't dismissed. Thanks for answering.
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If you say that. But you hardly will deny that the state considerably strengthened its control over this sector. And Russia has control over many companies and infrastructures that are essential. If the control of the gas and oil export would be proportional to the number 1/3, then how can it be that rising prices hit "problematic" neighbors but not "good" neighbors like Belarus? ...The point is, they are now allready for quite a time not in the Soviet Union anymore. Why did you wait so long to reduce or cancel the deductioins, just to do it so sudden with not much time to adopt? Because the people voted wrong in the elections?
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It's simple. Belarus is de-facto economically integrated part of Russia, her intention is further integration with Russia. That 1/3 of the oil and gas controlled by our government are enough to sustain special prices inside of Russia and her economical allies' zone. If there were zero percent of control - then no lower prices than the world prices would have been available anywhere - in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus or Georgia. The private masters would have set the European prices overnight. Ukraine and Georgia declared that they turn their backs on the project of Common Economocal Space with Russia in favour of European economical zone and future EU membership. They declared themselves to become our economical competitors henceforth. Belarus didn't. The question why our government still subsidize the Belarus is the issue of Russian taxpayers and Russian government. The opinions are different.
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Its really not important how the Russian state achieves it to blackmail them with the prizes, fact is he does. If the intent would be honest, the deductions would not be threatened to abolish over night directly in front of the next hard winter. It would be done in a way that the other state could adopt to the new situation in time. Unless the intent is to bring it into turmoil, than this overnight action makes sense.
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This is the most disgustful part of hypocrisy and direct lies about this issue in the West. 6 months before winter crisis (in warm summer) the Ukrainian government was informed and invited to discuss next annual treaty for the deliveries. By that time the prices for RUSSIAN gas INSIDE OF RUSSIA were already HIGHER than in UKRAINE. The Ukrainian government was informed about increasing of future price due to the world trend and new status of competitor. All six months the Ukrainian government played the foul game and artifically avoided the meeting to make the document of agreement. They were directly recommended from Washigton to suspend the matter unsettled till the last day and then try to insist on the former price which "bad Russians" have risen "suddenly" "in cold winter". The US controlled world media shot the wave of dramatic lies simultaneously, so that the majority of readers didn't even understand that Russia half a year demanded the level of price twice as little to the normal world price, which is applied for neighbouring Romania for instance or other Europe. Everybody thought that stalinist Putin set the fantastic "special" injust dragon-price over all possible stock-market norms overnight.
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Alone regarding Georgia there have been several "accidents" that led to an unstable deliver of resources. Of course you can tell me now the official Russian version that the Russian engineers are simply unable (even though just on the infrastructure towards Georgia surprisingly).
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To speak it softly, you've said the untruth. Very sad to see you doing this. There was ONE accident, when the pipeline to Georgia was blasted one night in the very difficult region in the mountains on the territory of Russia.The official Russian version says the Russian engineers succeeded to repair the destroyed segment in only 3 days working round o'clock in the frost among the bolders and unpassable cliffs. The stopped stream of fuel was immediatly overdirected to Georgia through the spare line on the territory of Azerbaijan so that Georgia got every cubic meter in time. Of course all this is Russian propaganda, and clever guys like you know definitely that true version is that of The Washington Post, where Russian imperialistic beasts have blown their pipeline to threaten and freeze the young democracy of Georgia.
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Apart from those incidents there have been the official actions with raising prices more than just significantly. (Even if you cancel deductions the tone and the condidtions make the music.)
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You mean the actions of Russia were too dangerous for Ukrainian economy and took place namely because of that ground? Look, when Russia in 90-s was unable to pay for her foreign debt, she was forced to get the new credits in the West, and the West gave them with pleasure on the incredible percent rates. This credits were murderous for our economy, they increased our debt yoke and pushed us towards the default and bancruptsy. Why didn't West speak about mercy and why didn't West say that those payments for existig debt are too significant and heavy for Russia for the time being, that Russia is not ready to pay, that you should give her a time and not demand so much, that those payments must not be so great lest the Russian economy went into turmoil and chaos? Why once the West do it - it is economical rationality and realism and when we do it - it is blackmail?
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Rebelling might be not the ideal word, neighboring countries that press on their sovereignty might be a better term.
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Elaborate this about stressed souvereignity. Take for instance Georgia, where all the government literally receive salary from G. Soros (which is equal CIA) fund. RUSSIA presses on their SOUVEREIGNITY? The wife of Ukrainian president is former worker of CIA structures specializing in the Cold War time on the anti-Soviet activities, President Uschenko openly meets and councils with the director of CIA in Crimea - RUSSIA presses on the Ukrainian SOUVEREIGNITY? What you understand as souvereignity, man?
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Thats hillarious. Do you have an idea about economics? There are goods that are more dispensable and others that are less. Cars are something that can be very easily exchanged by other brands. If you really seriously chose that example it does not show much understanding. Oil transfer heavily rellies on pipelines, otherwise there would hardly be so fierce quarrels about them from time to time, if they would be so strategically unimportant as your "car-comaprission" tries to claim. To change the source of oil in large dimensions a country needs quite some time. You need to change your whole infrastructure. Russia knows that its not as easy as you want to make it look like. Moreover is the market not able to provide fuel out of nothing, If Russia restrains delivery the lacking amount of oil has to come from anothe source, that costs at least extra if it is possible at short time apropriately at all.
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Who says we stop deliveries, all the more rapidly and sudden as you describe? All the long-term contracts are signed and will be fulfilled accuratly. Moreover, there is no doubt the new contracts will be signed and you've been given all garantees. All what we do - we do warn you openly and frankly long in advance that we will have at least the second big consumer, comparable with EU, and that EU can not dictate us to increase the volume of deliveries over that quantity that we need to sell. We ready to increase deliveries but not ready to follow and fully compensate your growing demand. That is why you have enough time (years) to build the LNG terminals, build the pipelines, get new partners, technologies, build the atomic plants - whatever, to care about upcoming situation. We don't want to be the ground for the economy collapse in EU, that's why here is our message - have your time, don't trouble but pay attantion and take measures right now, so that you escape the deficit of energy in 10 years.
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I did not say, that you have shut all doors. But the climate for European companies in Russia has been allready far better. Today if you dont fit into the political agenda, you have faster some problems with the authority than you can look. While I would really burn to see those problems ever occur with states controlled companies or from friendly oligarchs.
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The political agenda of Russia is the growth of wealth and security for Russia and her people, I think you are hardly surprised. Of course, every company seeking the benefits of participation in our economy boom must be loyal to this agenda, I wonder what else do you expect? If the economical activity of some foreign company besides the financial profit will have some political goals, contradicting to those I've noted - then this company will be expelled. Will you please name me the European brands, that was kicked out for this reason?
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Apart from that, I am sorry, but I am no expert on Russian markets. I just know that many countries are worried about the selective application of law in the business sector. Or tell me, was Yukos the only case of unlawful actions of an oligarch in Russia that accured during the Jelzin era? And where are the other similar cases then?
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No cases. The Yukos case was the great threat to our National security, but following that line would be the total renationalization with ever more dangerous consequences, including return to chaos of 90-s.
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This is unbearable. I demand an excuse for this grieve totally out of proportion accusation. Its not for the attack on us but this nearly borders on holocaust denial. I dont think you are such an uneducated person that you do not exactly know what you are saying here.
Either you excuse and use an appropiate term, or you show me an in detail proof that Europe runs an extermination camp for the extinction of african people. Otherwise I consider this discussion to be ended.
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No excuse. Just take into a habit to face the unpleasant truth, instead of shattering mirror and ubrupting the talk. The strange words like "extermination", "extinction" and the topic of Holocaust denial you invented yourself right here; these are not words of mine. Chill up, fellow, why have you gotten so nervous suddenly?) The camps with barbed wire were televised in the EuroNews, they are located on the isles in the Mideterranian sea, and you said right - they are for Africans. These camps are for concentration of illegal immigrants. BTW, don't use the argument of Holocaust denial against Russians - it's useless and will not act as you accustomed to in Europe or America - as trustworthy stamping instrument to show your opponent as pariah and slip from the dispute. Our grandfathers opened the gates of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and you'd better not lift up this topic.
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WRT Hungaria. I dont know which students you are talking about. If you mean the violent demonstrators that among others devasted the TV station and on other days caused chaos on the streets, I would not want to know how the Russian police would have acted. But you are right, it was unnecesarely brutal. If I am not wrong there are already law suits running. In case they dont succeed even though a human rights violation took place there is still the European court for Human Rights.
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The ribbon bullets, heavily traumatizing and dangerous weapon, can not be used by Russian police in principle, especially after the beloved democrat of the West B.Yeltsin has resigned. It's impossible in normal situation of stable State, when government and president follow the constitution.
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Do you want a honest answer? I was not sure and perhaps that was the most interesting answer you gave on my post yet. I have allready heard often enough that human rights in general are an invention to surpress the rest of the world. That they are not even principally a good thing, just western imperialism.
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Where did you hear that nonsense?
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Thats a nonsensical claim. Paedophils have no chance to get accepted. Its hillarious Russian propaganda at best, basing on not much than a few rumors and out of context news.
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The same reaction was once to the gays, and previous generation of Europeans denied the possibility of gay-parades as fierce as now you do. So what?..
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Transperacy international does not list Russia as to high for the freedom it grants its citizens and journalists have a rather dangerous life, dont you agree?
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Oh, if you take the lists of the Freedom Hause, you find Russia among the last items amidst the worst countries in the Universe. I don't agree.
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But yet you still have a democracy. Its non of my business but Russians have it in their hand if they want democracy or something else. And to tell you the difference, in a democracy there exists a opposition that at least has a chance to get to power eventually. An opposition that has not to fear about punishment and victimisation. I really dont know enough about your political situation in detail, but if you say you have both, than its fine for you.
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Opposition can not consist of persons with double citizenship, people with the personal bank accounts abroad, representatives of the US or any other foreign power interests, people sponsored and funded by foreign funds and governments. Besides that opposition must represent the considerable part of national business. Everything ok, thanks.
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I think its rather unlikely that the Ukraine will join the Nato. There is no real benefit except even more troubles with Russia. And Belarus, come on, before they will join the Nato, they are allready reunited with Russia again.
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Washigton and the government of the Ukraine think another. So if they won't join - this will be despite their plans. What is remarkable - not as the will of prevailing majority of Ukrainians, who democratically oppose this idea, but only because of possible "problems with Russia".
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WRT EU admission. Thats simply an invention of your side. There is no option to join for both countries.
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That is not so important. No matter if Ukraine will not get into the EU. The main thing - Ukrainians must not think so and Ukraine must break as many ties with Russia as possible.
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Who says that? You?
That could be directly related with the destruction, murders and rapes the Serbs committed before. I oppose both. And that the Kosovo mission was not too succesfull is also no secret. But at least we work to solve that problem in a way that both parties can live with it without waging war again.
I dont see this attempt with the regions you have your soldiers in.
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I say - despite you oppose it, in your peacekeeping regions that ethnical party that West supports goes on to kill and discriminate another, because possibly that KFOR think as you do - that other party deserves to be killed and expelled. In our peacekeeping regions we don't think anybody has right for murder, rape or robberies out of any reason, the revenge too. Our planes didn't bomb the cities of Georgia to prevent cleanses against Abkhasians and Osetians.
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Come on, you are talking like if Russia never would have been an empire. Ask the central Asiens how much they loved being an Soviet region. Apart from that, I allready mentioned that I as also the vast majority of Europeans strictly opposed that Iraq war.
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C'mon, ask them, those central Asiens. The better chance to ask - millions of gastarbeiters in Moscow or those standing in the queues to gain the RF citizenship after the experience of not being the Soviet region.
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Why should we pay for Georigia? Oh, wait, yes sure, thats another country we are eager to join our EU...
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Ok, I see you are not ready to pay for country which is not the part of EU and which you don't plan to take into EU. Now you must explain me why we must be ready to pay for Georgia. C'mon, explain me that. If you can not explain and don't want to pay for them than you must offer to Georgia the financial credits and stop this BS rhetoric about Russian blackmail.