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Originally Posted by Gort
Look lets skip all the propogandizing bullshit here shall we? What you are saying is since Russia at one time, and this has changed from time period to time period throughout history, did control these areas you have a perfect right to go back in any time you damn well please and get them back? Does that still apply? If so can we assume Russia will once again try to militarily retake Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, the various Stans in south central aisa, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. This is pure nationalistic crap. It would be like me saying look for a period of time our troops were in Mexico and even parts of Canada so they all belong to us whenever we feel like going back. I understand your pride won't let you look at WWII factually, and we will get to another little fact you are incorrect abount in a minute, but may I suggest you keep these little ideas to your Russian nationailst friends. We know the history, and frankly just because at one time you controlled these areas means nothing. If it did Koenigsberg along with the rest of East Pussia is open to Germany retaking it when they want. I doubt you, and I am certain the Poles, would argue that point. So please lets deal in the real world, not in your dreams of lost empire.
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You are so loud and pleased with your cozy arrogant self-feeling of your supremacy and omnisciency, that you obviously seem not to read the posts attentively. The result is as everybody can witness here - the rediculous outburst of groundless clishees which you stuck upon me. Look once again to my post. I only have given the retrospective view of Stalin in the period of 40-s, which he had about the developing of the situation since the beginning of the 20th century. I used the terms of that time, like "the provinces" for provinces they were and stayed in the eyes of Bolshevicks who first made them independent and claimed that independence back few years afterwhile. But oh, that all was not matter to you. Here that came suddenly: "propogandizing bullshit", "pure nationalistic crap", "you keep these little ideas to your Russian nationailst friends", "lets deal in the real world, not in your dreams of lost empire". It is the same as if you for instance asked the Slartibartfas to describe the considerations of German government in 30-s, which led them to military and political decisions and after he presented them to you, you would call him Nazi and fascist bastard-hitlerjugend. You are laughable, because you see exactly what you want to see and nothing else. Of course to your mind every Russian must be the brutal imperialist and nationalist - how else, as you have lost the suitable Commi clishee you stuck upon Russians earlier? You really don't need to bother yourself with the communication in forum - why, if you artifically create thoughts and ideas for your opponents? You could simply open your wordpad, type questions and answers, complying to your vision of the world.
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To begin with the "international bobtails" are not military so frankly I don't care how many of them are killed.
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Everybody watched the video where these hirelings fired at the civil cars for fun. And everybody knows that they make in the least one third "invisible" part of occupation forces full armed and beyond the any law. You don't give a damn? Ok, but it is part of your army, however you condone their deeds and casualties.
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Did Madeline Albright ever say America needs lebensraum and we are looking to the lands of Untermenschen to provide it? Did Thatcher?
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They probably didn't study German, and Hitler as showed history was too direct and reckless in his proclamations, therefore 50 years after Hitler and Nuremberg, in English those things sound a bit softer and more accurately. Instead of Untermenshen - the rest beyond the so-called Civilized World, instead of Lebensraum - National interests of USA and Western (which are of course the US') values.
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And had it not been for the winter and resupply it would have been the knock out blow.
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It would have been bloody partisan bog, thousand times worse than Iraq, Vietnam or Afganistan, the war without victory.
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Lets see the first convoy to land in Murmansk was the Dervish Convoy which landed on August 31, 1941. It delivered raw materials and Hawker Hurricanes.
The second convoy, PQ1, arrived at Archangelsk on October 11, 1941 and delivered 20 tanks and 193 Hurricans.
PQ2 sailed from Liverpool and arrived at Archangel on October 30, 1941 with 6 ships bringing supplies.
PQ3 sailed from Hvalfjord and arrived at Archangel on November 22, 1941 with 8 ships bringing supplies.
PQ4 sailed from Hvalfjord and arrived at Archangel on November 28, 1941 with 8 ships bringing supplies
PQ5 sailed from Hvalfjord and arrived at Archangel on December 13, 1941 with 7 ships bringing supplies.
Now lets look specifically at on of these convoys, PQ17, It left Rekjavik on June 27, 1942. When it left it had 39 merchant ships. 24 of those ships were sunk while we supposedly "waited and thought us to be chanceless and therefore not worthing for help." as you so eloquently put it. The USSR did puch the Germans back from Moscow in the winter of 1941-42, however it wasn't until the victory at the battle of Stalingrad in the January 1943 that it became clear the Soviet Army had the upper hand. By that time if you go to the site I linked to you can see how many convoys had been sent, and how many ships and men lost their lives not giving a shit about the USSR's efforts. It isn't me that doesn't have all the facts Oleg. In fact now it isn't even you that can't get them. It is however you that refuses to acknowledge them.
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I know all the facts you applied. And I fully recognize the glory of the captains and sailors of the PQ-caravans. I recognize the sincerity of the American and Soviet soldiers who shaked the hands on the Elbe meeting and I remember the heroizm of American pilots who transported the war-planes over the Pacific Ocean to our air-fields in Siberia. But all this happened after blitzkrieg was turned to position war in November 1941. Since that moment the time was working against Hitler and Stalingrad was not the mere luck and turnover.
I don't say USSR received no help at all in decisive 1941. But you can compare your own data - look for the PQ1-5 and the PQ-17, look for tonnage and quantity of vessels. First convoys were the convoys "of diplomacy", however cynical it sounds, but politics comes along with cynism. That was very clever diplomacy as even now you can cite the chronicles for me and use them in dispute. The best pragmatic example of attitude towards USSR in those days expressed H.Truman who said :"If Germans are winning we should help Soviets, if USSR - then othervise, and let them kill one another as long as possible". The 20 tanks could not of course contribute the meaningful share as the thousands of tanks clashed on both sides. But this policy really had changed in 1942.
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I could understand your thought process when the Soviet government handed you what they thought you needed to know and blocked you from getting anything elese.
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Soviet government could not hand me anything and block me from getting anything because I was too small to be interested in politics when it crumbled.
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Learn your history son or debate with the amatuers. Propoganda doesn't pass for facts here.
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What else exept facts you mister High Hat Professional think the propaganda operates with? Of course it is only we who are the stupid victims of propaganda, because you are too wise and clever guy to be affected, there is no stinkin' propaganda in the West democracies besides that, only clear abstract reliable facts, eh?)))