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Originally Posted by Cato
Over the span of ten years, which would mean absolutely nothing.
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No co2 levels have been directly measured for 50 years, and the rise of human emissions during that time period have been more than enough to explain that increase.
The Keeling curve and rise in CO2 in the atmosphere
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Hmmm, well let me use some of your logic. Rising temperature causes CO2 concentrations to increase, the temperature has risen over the past 10 years, therefore, the rise in CO2 concentrations is entirely natural.
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Rising temperatures don't cause co2 to rise as much as they have since pre-industrial times. co2 rises 100ppm from 10C warming in the ice core record (
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/gra...vostok.co2.gif), and that's after thousands of years of increase. So 100ppm increase since preindustrial average (ie 280ppm to 380ppm) is not going to be caused by a <1C temperature rise in that time.
Plus the little ice age was at least 0.5C cooler than 1900 temperature, yet co2 levels were only about 10ppm lower. Temperature does dictate the equillibrium level of co2, but it isn't sensative enough to explain the 100ppm rise in the last 200 years.
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But back to the point, until you know all the natural causes for the fluctuation of CO2 concentrations, and have ruled them out as possible causes for the current rise in CO2 concentrations, you can't definitively claim the increase in CO2 concentrations is anthropogenic
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They have been ruled out because nature is absorbing more co2 than it emits. So it cannot be the cause of the recent rise.
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, nor can you claim that nature would take any particular course were man not around.
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It cannot be proven, but it's extremely unlikely that it would have risen this far this century without our contribution, and I cannot emphasize how unlikely it would be. Take the bottom graph on this page for context of the recent rise in the past 1000 years:
The Keeling curve and rise in CO2 in the atmosphere
And this one again for context over the past 450,000:
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/gra...vostok.co2.gif
Currently levels are 380ppm and rising about 2ppm per year. They can't even fit that value on either of those graphs it is so off the scale.
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What? I thought the equilibrium level of CO2 in the atmosphere was entirely a product of human emissions.
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You are confusing "equillibrium level" with the level co2 is actually is at. The actual level of co2 can be above or below the equillibrium level, and whether it is above or below determines whether nature will absorb more or emit more. The equillibrium level is determined by temperature. During the little ice age the equillibrium level was slightly lower (about 275ppm), and so co2 levels fell slowly to that level.
Currently co2 is far above the equillibrium level, which is why nature is currently a net absorber of co2.
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Do CO2 concentrations increase because of temperature, or because of human emissions.
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Both. But currently co2 concentrations are rising primarily due to human emissions.
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Your statement basically resolves to this: The atmosphere will absorb more CO2 than it emits if there is more CO2 in the atmosphere to absorb, therefore, the atmosphere will always have a contant level of CO2 concentrations. Which is not true.
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The atmosphere will absorb more co2 than it emits if atmospheric co2 is above a certain level - a level determined by temperature. Humans have pushed co2 well above this level, which is why nature is absorbing more co2 (and the rate of absorption has been increasing over the past 50 years)
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According to what? What "things" need to be equal? Are you arguing the atmosphere is an ordered system?
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If humans were not currently emitting co2 (ie if stopped tomorow), co2 levels would be falling. It's simply not the case that nature would "notice" humans had stopped emitting co2 and would start emitting more co2 elsewhere to make up the 28 billion tons less.
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Really? Why? What happened to all the other forcings that alter CO2 concentrations? Given that CO2 concentrations fluctuate naturally, why do you believe they simply stop when humans are around?
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From the second image in the link I posted you can see they did "stop" during the past few hundred years and co2 levels were floating around 280ppm throughout with no significant change (even the little ice age only bought it down about 10ppm). What do you think happened in the 20th century which would have changed that trend if only humans hadn't emitted any co2?
co2 concentrations do fluctuate naturally, mainly when temperatures fluctuate. The ice core record dramatically shows how co2 follows temperature (ie temperature is determining the equillibrium level that co2 moves towards). But it shows a 100ppm increase in co2 requires about 10C increase in temperature.
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Do they just not like to be watched? What about temperature? Since temperature has increased over the past 150 years (assuming we accept that premise), shouldn't CO2 concentrations have increased commensurately?
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Given the warming in the early 20th century occured naturally, without human emissions co2 would probably be today a bit higher than the pre-industrial baseline at about 285ppm. But not 380ppm which from the ice core records is an unprecedented level for co2 in at least the last 700,000 years.
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Then they would reach their pre-industrial levels and stop? Because the planet likes the 280ppm number?
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You say that in a joking way, but the climate has consistantly found this 280ppm level during interglacial periods:
It appears that the temperatures of interglacial periods do dictate a equillibrium level for co2 at around 280ppm.
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You first need to understand the mechanism. Do we?
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The mechanism for co2 emissions (from any source) causing co2 rises is pretty self explainatory. You just need the new emission source to tip the balance towards more in than out.
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Really? Well, that makes sense. Temperature started increasing naturally, therefore CO2 concentrations rose naturally. Looks like my erroneous conclusion is getting stronger every minute. Yours, however, is suffering. Unless you're arguing that Man somehow increased the temperature of this planet?
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As explained above, the co2 rise has far exceeded the sensitivity of co2 to temperature.
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Then there could be natural reasons why CO2 concentrations are increasing.
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No, the nature at this time is the act of absorbing more co2 than it is emitting. So no nature is actually absorbing some of the co2 concentration increase. If it wasn't then the full 28 billion tons of human emissions would cause a 4ppm rise in the atmosphere each year. Rates are only rising at 2ppm, showing that nature is not acting as a cause of the increase, but is actually countering it to a degree.
Until we got to approximately 280, and as co2 levels approach that value nature will absorb at a slower rate.
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That's not the argument. It would be better phrased as:
co2 concentrations rise due to more co2 being emitted into the atmosphere than is absorbed.
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Which logically means: either the absorption rate decreased, or the emission rate increased. You can't state specifically which.
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If the absorption rate decreased then co2 levels would be rising far faster than they are, so we do know it's rising because the emission rate has increased.
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Because co2 levels are only rising about half the rate man is emitting co2, nature must be a net sink of co2. Ie man is emitting twice as much co2 as co2 levels are rising. Therefore man has caused co2 concentrations to rise.
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Your conclusion still does not follow. Assuming your numbers for how much CO2 Man is emitting and how much CO2 is added to the environment every year are correct, the most you could argue is that Man is a cause of rising CO2 concentrations.
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Take man's emissions out and there would be no rise because there would be less co2 entering the atmosphere than leaving it.
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Furthermore, you would not be able to argue CO2 concentrations would decrease if Man stopped emitting CO2 because climate is not a linear, ordered system. You don't know what would happen, just as you don't know what's happening now. You can come up with very plausible theories, none of which will have the definite statements you keep wanting to make, but they will still be just theories.
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Nothing is provable but this stuff is certain to the point of 99.99%. A man could get fried on less evidence.
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No, because nature is absorbing more co2 than it is emitting.
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When did it decide to do that?
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It "decided" to do that once co2 rose above the level that could be supported by temperature.
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Did it decide after temperatures started rising? If so, how come CO2 levels have reached such extreme levels in the past and stayed there long after temperature began to decline?
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Because it takes time for co2 to fall, a long time. The rate of absorption is proportional to how far co2 is above the equillibrium point. The measured co2 trends show that nature is absorbing co2 at a faster pace as the co2 levels in the atmosphere increase.
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Really? What do you have, some sort of little toll booth the CO2 molecules have to go through so you can count them? How do you know how much CO2 "nature" put into the system and how much it took out?
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CO2 rise = Natural Contribution + Human Contribution
two of these are known - co2 rise, and human contribution. So the third can be calculated.
Natural Contribution = CO2 rise (2ppm) + Human Contribution (4ppm - ie ~28 billion tons co2)
So Natural Contribution is about minus 2ppm, so nature is absorbing more than it emits.
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Who knows? Climate is a non-linear, chaotic system that we don't know near enough about in order to make claims like, "If A, then B."
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Not everything in climate is unknowable. Lots of things are well understood and known. The carbon cycle happens to be something better understood. But also in other cases - eg "If sun doubles in output, then earth warms" and "If el nino year, then warmer global temperatures" are very certain "if A, then B" statements to do with climate.
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Lest anyone be tricked into thinking these links show something they don't, the first is a link to measured CO2 concentrations from one observatory. (One observatory to conclude that CO2 concentrations are rising globally. I'll let the more intelligent among us decide if that seems right.)
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I don't know why, but almost with anything raised you try and find the smallest little detail to nit-pick over.
The Mauna Loa observatory has prominence only because it stretches back the furthest. But there are also global stations that measure co2 levels, and the trend from those match the Mauna Loa records well:
Global Monitoring Division
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The graph shows recent monthly mean carbon dioxide globally averaged over marine surface sites. The Global Monitoring Division of NOAA/Earth System Research Laboratory has measured carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases for several decades at a globally distributed network of air sampling sites
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If you graph this data you'll see a slight uptrend from about 320ppm in 1958, to about 380 in 2004. An increase of about 19%. Which, considering that increasing temperatures cause CO2 concentrations to rise, is wholly consistent with my erroneous conclusion that temperatures are currently causing CO2 concentrations to rise.
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But it isn't. A 10C rise was required to cause a 55% co2 rise.
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But let's look at onon's theory. Since the only numbers he likes to repeat are the 15 extra tons of CO2 Man is pumping into the air, 15 tons over 46 years (1958-2004) comes out to be 690 tons of CO2. 690 tons of CO2 caused an increase of 19% in CO2 concentrations. Do I have that right, onon? This relatively paltry amount (when compared to 750-830 gigatons already in the atmosphere) would cause an increase of 19%?
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No that's not right at all. Humans are emitting 28
billion extra tons of co2 today. Not 15 tons.
As this site mentions:
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Since 1751 roughly 305 billion tons of carbon have been released to the atmosphere from the consumption of fossil fuels and cement production
TRENDS: CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS
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Now 305 billion tons of carbon is equivalent to 1128 billion tons of co2 (a co2 molecule weighs 3.7 times more than a carbon atom).
So humans since 1751 have emitted 1128 gigatons of co2 into the atmosphere (an atmosphere that currently holds about 2800 gigatons).
That's a quantity of 40% of the current atmospheric concentration of co2 has been emitted by man over the past 250 years, most of which was emitted in the last 50 years.
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The second link takes you to a table of estimates for anthropogenic CO2 emissions. Estimates that, as even the short blurb up top tells us, aren't even close to actual.
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Nothing in the "short blurb" even suggests that. It reads:
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All emission estimates are expressed in million metric tons of carbon.
Per capita emission estimates are expressed in metric tons of carbon.
Population estimates were not available to permit calculations of global
per capita estimates before 1950. Please note that annual sums were
tallied before each element (e.g., Gas) was rounded and reported here
so totals may differ slightly from the sum of the elements due to
rounding.
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Which part tells us the figures aren't even close to accurate?
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Where did they get these estimates? How did they arrive at those numbers?
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The method is given here:
TRENDS: CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS
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Publications containing historical energy statistics make it possible to estimate fossil fuel CO2 emissions back to 1751. Etemad et al. (1991) published a summary compilation that tabulates coal, brown coal, peat, and crude oil production by nation and year. Footnotes in the Etemad et al.(1991) publication extend the energy statistics time series back to 1751. Summary compilations of fossil fuel trade were published by Mitchell (1983, 1992, 1993, 1995).
...
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What neither of these links tell us are: 1) how much CO2 is being emitted naturally, or 2) how much CO2 is being absorbed naturally. Both of which we would need to know in order to make any assumptions about whether the net effect of nature is to absorb CO2.
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As I said you can derive the total natural contribution from the knowns. What you cannot easily do is split that up into how much co2 is being absorbed naturally and how much is emitted naturally, but you can easily tell that more is being absorbed than emitted by nature. That is overall nature is absorbing about half the rate of human emissions.
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I have no idea. Unlike you, I understand that climate has many, many, many, many dependent variables. And I also understand that if I change one of these variables today, I won't necessarily get the same results if I changed that variable tomorrow.
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It's not true that everything in nature is chaotic and unpredictable. Certainly the seasons are a prime example of the most predictable aspects of climate. The carbon cycle is fairly simple at a macro level, and is fairly well understood. It's not true that we know nothing and cannot reach a good conclusion on this subject of the cause of co2 rise. It is beyond doubt that co2 levels are rising, and beyond doubt that human activity is the cause.