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Originally Posted by Marcopolo View Post
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However, when a cultural group moves into another country that has a radically different culture, it is unreasonable for the immigrants to expect the host culture to conform to their ways of doing things. Historically that is what has happened everywhere Muslims have settled.
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Given your balanced writing, I'm surprised you don't see the obvious analogy here. Shall we have a look at what the emigrants from Europe have done in the past ? Are you conveniently overlooking the entire colonialist era? Thousands of destroyed cultures, enslavement, usurpation of resources, genocides,...
And one region that has suffered this fate is the region from whence the current immigrants come. Can you really be surprised that when you take away the natural resources from a region, that the inhabitants of said region migrate towards where the returns from these resources are enjoyed ?
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THOUSANDS of enslaved cultures, come on, we were not that bad. In the past, both Islam and the West have been imperialist, and they both have strong cultures they believe are superior to others. As far as enslavement and genocide are concerned, Islamic society is just as guilty as European Christians were. Look up the Armenian massacre for reference, as just one example of this. The humiliation and subjigation of Dhimmi communities in Muslim lands wasn't exactly what I would call embracing multicultural values either. In fact, many Dhimmi communities were treated about the same way that the Jews were treated in 1930's era Nazi Germany(Destruction of Places of Worshiop, extra taxes, being required to wear distinctive clothing to identify them, different treatment under the law, etc.
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Even though I have had a Mexican and Russian girlfriend, I will likely never have a Muslim girlfirend because I would have to convert to Islam first, which I am not about to to, ever.
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This is not true. It's the case in some archaic-traditionalist sections of the muslim community but it's in no way general.
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Oh, really? This is what Wikepedia has to say about it, you can of course change the entry if you like-
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Islamic jurists reject the possibility that a dhimmi man (and generally any non-Muslim) may marry a Muslim woman.[141] According to Friedmann, Islamic law regarding mixed marriages developed out of three Quranic verses — 2:221, 60:10, and 5:5. As some early Muslim scholars put it, Friedmann relates, such a marriage would lead to an incompatibility between the superiority of a woman by virtue of her being a Muslim and her unavoidable subservience to a non-Muslim husband. Friedmann also claims that some traditionalists compare marriage to enslavement and thus just like dhimmis are prohibited from having Muslim slaves, so dhimmi men are not allowed to have Muslim wives; conversely, Muslim men were allowed to marry women of the "People of the Book" because the enslavement of non-Muslims by Muslims is allowed.[142] Azizah Y. al-Hibri states that the relevant hadith regarding marriage and slavery draw an analogy between the status of women and slaves in Muhammad's society in order to beseech the male audience to treat them kindly: "Be good to women; for they are powerless captives (awan) in your households. You took them in God’s trust, and legitimated your sexual relations with the Word of God, so come to your senses people, and hear my words..."[143]
The prohibition of marriage between Muslim woman and Dhimmi man was enforced with the utmost rigor,[144] with any violations of it, including a sexual relationship between a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman, being punishable by death. All schools of Islamic jurisprudence, with the exception of Hanafi, treated dhimmis who married or engaged in sexual relations with Muslim women like adulterers, for whom the punishment is death by stoning.[145] In cases when a non-Muslim wife converts to Islam, while her non-Muslim husband does not, their marriage is annulled.[146]
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In fairness, you did say only some traditional sects, which I interpret to mean something like orthodox Islam. But that is what we are talking about there, the radical (by Western standards) orthodox version of Islam that many young British Muslims apparently adhere to.
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So either they never integrate, or, more likely, the host culture eventually "integrates" into the Muslim culture through intermarriage because the immigrant culture refuses to allow this to happen otherwise, so who is the racist here really?
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You're making quite a few unsupported presuppositions here. First, that marriage is instrumental in defining culture. In Europe, it's not. It's a dwindling institution. Secondly that the sole interaction between communities is through marriage. It's not. The youngest generation of immigrants have livestyles all but indiscernible from that of the other youngsters, and including premarital sex, consumerism, cohabitating without official ties,etc. Thirdly, that there exists a monochrome muslim culture within the immigrant community. The fallacy here would become immediately obvious if you were to visit any European town with a high number of immigrants.
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Glad to hear that, it means that those individual are successfully integrating and adopting Western values. It is the ones that are not that I am concerned about.
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No problems there, just problems with radical anti-Western ideology.
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What is this Western ideology you speak off ? Consumerism ? American patriottism ? Why would it apply to Europe ?
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The Western Ideology I speak of is that of various thinkers including John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and too many others to name here. The West also developed modern science and the scientific method which reaches conclusions about how the universe works based on observation and not blind faith in a fictional being. It is also why we can now treat diseases that were once considered deadly with pill or vaccine, and why we will soon be able to conquer most other forms of natural death.
In a nutshell, it is ideas like freedom of religion, separation of Church and state, the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness free from government oppression (like telling you what to wear) and religious persecution, the idea of equality under the law, that kind of thing. I believe these are noble values that are worth defending.
You have the right to your religon as long as it doesn't infringe upon my right to believe what I want to belive, or my freedom of speech. This includes making fun of religious figures in a cartoon if I so choose to do so. If the Muslim radicals had their way we would all be Dhimmi.