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Originally Posted by Gort
Lets be honest the main reason in europe is space. We have it you do not.
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Of course there are reasons why European cities look different than American ones. I would not overestimte the space argument however. I think the historical developement is far more important. Its not like most European cities would not have plenty of space to grow miles over miles into the backland. But its true Europeans have a fundamentally different concept of "space" than you have. In Europe also land not used by man has a value (with unused land I do not mean a national park, I mean boring totally normal meadows or woods were not the slightest special thing is obvious at first sight, nor any special protection thing exists). Using them for different purposes must be legitimated with good reasons. Creating road overcapacities will be rejected by most people as legitimate reason, ie considered "waste of space". Even if we don't need that space for something else. Its because the non-human purpose the space served before (->eg as "boring" meadow) is more important than the not necessarely needed road capacities.
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There is no reason why cities that have decided to invest in their light rail or subway or commuter train systems can't also have extensive highway systems for those that do not want to be at the mercy of the PT system.
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There are reasons, and I do not see in how far roads should be more reliable than the PT system, in fact they are less reliable. That does not stop many American cities to live quite well without a PT system that is worth that name. So why should we be dependent on a huge "back-up" road system? If many American cities dont have a PT "back up"?
But we could of course talk ages about reasons etc. I think we have already before anyway.
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You keep talking about Vienna as if it were something for cities in the US to aspire to. Some will some will not.
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True, some car geeks might hate Vienna, and also that I surpass them easily with my bike at rush hour...
Well, they live in the wrong city. But most of these people who think so, are also hypocrite as much as they can as they for sure do not want that people pass the own home in huge numbers by car as well.
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For me I do not really like PT and will always prefer to drive. You do not feel the same, I understand that.
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I do understand the way you think. But I think driving car is asocial. Its the peak of egoism. Its wasting city space, ruining environment, producing unnecessary noise etc just for the very own comfort. I think thats bad. And it doesn't get together with my own principles I have. Of course, there are people who have no alternative, where using the PT would mean an extreme disadvantage that can not be expected to be accepted. Thats why we have roads, but far too many try to hid behind this argument when it simply comes down to one thing: laziness.
You know what is the worst thing when it comes to cars in dense cities? Its not the driving cars, its the parking ones. They ruin and consume every free square meter of public space if you set car traffic no limits. We had this in many cities for many decades. In most cities one could observe however a counter tendency again. Where public space was given back to the people again. Its would be nearly impossble to serve that need of parking lots a car infrastructure of American dimensions would demand in our own European cities. One can not build a parking house below every third building. Thats not feasable. Thats also a reason, why small cars are more popular in Europe. There is a reason for them. In Italies cities for example, you hardly see anything else than small cars. Only a complete idiot would drive a large SUV there. It would be in fact completely uncomfortable to do so (the only language the human race seems to understand; selfishness. I mean its not that Europeans are better than Americans...)
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Part of the difference is the environments we were raised in. I lived in Germany from 11 to 16. We came back after school was over when I was 16 years old, and since at that time Americans mainly got their licenses through school sponsored drivers ed it meant I had to wait for 6 months before I could get my license. I hated it because all my friends were already driving. Slarti I am sure you had nothing like that. Environment has a lot to do with how you feel about this issue. Don't get me wrong it would not bother me to see the end of SUV's and much more efficient cars, but in the end I still want to be able to drive whereever I want to. When my wife and I visit Europe hopefully later this year, we will rent a car for most of the time. We will take the train once or twice just so she can experience it, but for the most part we will drive so we can go where we want when we want on no one elses schedule.
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Actually if you should ever visit Vienna or any European town with a similar infrastructure situation, and use the care also anywhere within the town, well, I'd wish you good luck. But seriously, there is no need to ruin ones stay just because of the dislike of the PT system. Viennas streets are no enjoyment for people that dont know the city. Tourists nearly never use the car within the town and are totally happy with it.
If you referred to city to city travel its a different point. Thats understandable, even though you should be able to reach any city you want to see by train and bus as well.