[quote=IIIX;824077]Quite wrong. Read the whole thread.

I was attempting to give you the opportunity of correcting yourself. Apparently I made a mistake. Very well - I will accept your view: that you really do believe all these things. I will exit this thread and allow you and Mare to agree on all of this bizarre stuff.....it's too weird for me.....

It's not the Christians, Tim, it's what they do. Aren't you familiar with the "love the sinner, hate the sin" philosophy? Are you denying that homo and trans sexual people are being beaten, raped, and killed by people who claim to be Christians? On what basis are denying this? Are you denying that the Bible is the Word of God? Are you denying that the Bible calls for the deaths of homosexual people? Are you denying that transsexual people are thrown into the homosexual group because most people don't have a clue that transsexuality isn't about sexual orientation? It isn't that just Christians are culpable, ALL people are culpable if they are trying to bring the world's injustices (all the injustices) to an end. We are responsible.

Just as soon as you can guarantee me that no more homosexual or transsexual people will ever be harmed again by people claiming to be Christians and justifying their behavior with the Bible, then I will apologize to you personally and to every other Christian on the planet publicly. Deal?

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

No, you've been trying once again to show how "outraged" you were; expecting others to leave you alone to your state of great emotional shock.

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Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!
Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers.
(Beckett)

[quote=Tim;824078]Cut and run? Ultimately we are all culpable. Look up the word, Tim, there are degrees of culpability, we are the ones living on this planet, we must be responsible for what happens here.



(Sorry if I was unclear on this point, Mr. IIIX.)

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

I feel too young to be a mister; however you would be kind to attribute his own words to Tim in the previous post. As for your vision of culpability, I don't suscribe to it. But it is a very difficult question. I feel responsible for my own acts, ie for example trying to hide criminal acts made by others; and generally, I don't think I can be culpable of "not doing something", but there are exceptions. A very difficult question, I'm telling you

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Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!
Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers.
(Beckett)

What you completely fail to realize is that these people do not do these things because they are christian, Muslim, or whatever riligion, they do them because they are full of hatred and simply use whatever religion they happened to be raised on as justification. Terrorists committ terrrorist acts because they are full of hatred, bitterness, and jealously; it just so happens to be that when certain passages are taken out of context from the Koran it seems to justify what they are doing. Christianity has over 2 billion followers, yet more than 99% are generally good people. The same goes for Islam. There are 1.5 billion muslims. How many are terrorists?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to attribute Tim's words to you, I simply didn't hit the return key and separate the two messages. Sorry. You are right, it is a difficult issue and one cannot fight all the battles everywhere--so we do what we can and hope it's enough.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

I don't know how you feel qualified to speak for all the other Christians, let alone the Muslims, who are you to state that Rev. Fred Phelps does what he does because he's a hateful, when he says he's doing God's work and he can point to the places in the Bible that justify it to him?

I don't fail to realize what you are saying, but I don't know if it's true and neither do you. All I can do is look at the things people do and listen to how they justify themselves. (Know ye them by their works.) The Scriptures ARE in the Bible. Are you saying that the Bible is wrong? If it is wrong, then why don't the "real" Christians change it? Are you teaching your children that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? My brothers are and I know a lot of other Christians who are. How can you have it both ways? Either the Bible is wrong and the behaviors based on it are wrong, or it's right and it does justify the behaviors we are discussing.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Everyone who wants to return to the topic at hand say I... alright then.

I think the issue boils down to two seperate situations (and their combination).

- EITHER the airline is discriminating on the basis of religion (by allowing muslims, but not christians, to wear their religious paraphernalia while doing their jobs).
- OR they are simply restricting the wearing of fancy jewlery (maybe they think jewlery is too attention-grabbing with the bright coloration and reflectiveness).
- OR there may be some of both, some of those who approved of the regulation may have done it because they think jewlery is too distracting, some may have voted in its favor for religious reasons.

I would like to see some evidence in favor of one of these positions. If they are doing it because they are intentionally discriminating on the basis of religion, this is wrong and we should be upset. If they are doing it for the 2nd reason, its their right as a private company to do whatever they think is best for business, without breaking the law. I suspect they are probably doing it for a bit of both reasons, I'll bet there were people on the board voting for legitimate business reasons, and others voting for their own personal bias. How to solve this problem if this is the case? I'm not sure, maybe christian employees should wear hats with crosses etched into them, see what happens.

I am leaving you and Mare to agree on your joint view of Christians. I assume you were saying you agreed with Mare because you tend to follow up on my posts with remarks like these - but apparently you really believe this stuff.

I fail to see how the Christian mainstream isnt "doing anything about it." Its not like Christians dont speak out against violence or hate crimes. And if you argue that by their silence they are giving tacit approval to the beatings, then they also should get credit for giving tacit dissapproval to hate groups like the KKK by not passing out the Turner diaries. Also, very presumptious of you to assume that I dont know what its like to see victims in community centers.

Again with the presumptions. Thanks for taking the oppurtunity for "educating" me on the difference as opposed to just bashing my "ignorance."

Its there, line 31 of the Status of the Global Mission. I'm just saying you overstated the case that Christians are a majority or a majority force in the world.

Actually as a matter of fact I do. I know at least 21 college aged Christians who took a trip down Louisiana last May to help Katrina victims during their spring break. The Christian organization that runs the program has been doing the same thing every month since the hurricane hit, well after other charities stopped. Also, http://www.themissionmd.org/ which is a small operation but working nonetheless. These are but two small examples of people who try and live out the words of Jesus.

So first you tell me that the 80% of America that is Christian is absolutely capable of disowning the natural inclination to put the self above others. Then you connotate that the same 80% is succeptible to the ravings of the KKK? I think you have the levels of influence backwards.

I can see plenty of reasons why secular humanism would be more appealing than religion (First of which no one blames you for all the intolerance in America ).

If I may follow along your line of being presumptuous, Im going to go out on a limb and say that you haven't read the whole Bible. The one verse you keep citing is Lev.20:13. If you read a little further you'd read about Jesus, who rewrote the law into two commandments (Mrk 12:28-41). And no I dont think that these two verses are contradictory. I for one hate citing one verse at a time, it misses out on a lot of contextual points. The Bible must be read front to back in order to be understood. You dont see me taking one line out Moby-Dick and calling it Mellville's only theme.

Also, why are the Crusades and the Inquisition just Christians' faults? Why not blame Italians and Spaniards? Why not blame all Americans today for slavery while you're at it? For one, I think these examples shortchange political and economic issues that surrounded these events. To say that there was a chance that the Church had ulterior motives would be an understatement. Also, your point is a great indicator of how religion can be used to justify just about anything. The main point I think here is that you can't blame Christianity for hate crimes. You have every right to blame the individuals for their actions, but generalizing a religion is myopic and misleading. As for Christians not speaking out against these ills, heres a link to a christian article advocating action against hate groups as well as detailing some work in the past: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...16/ai_55881846 .
The opposition is there, it just doesnt make headlines. Oh, and the next time a friend asks me to join him in the beat-down of a gay, I'll let him know that its not cool with me if he does that. But I'm only one man and can't babysit every redneck too ignorant to love.

Well that's awful clear-cut dont you think?

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Hate is a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

If a Muslim said that, then I would be intrigued and seek to learn about the religion. I would definitely not say that all Muslims are bad.

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Hate is a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

I said "probably" in both instances, thus giving you the benefit of the doubt. I note that you have not said whether you actually see the victims up close and personal or not nor have you stated whether you know any of the science around transsexuality.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Well Leviticus 20:13 is awfully clear-cut too, don't you think?

Below is a copy of the gay marriage ban for Virginia, seems pretty hateful to me. How does it look to you?

"This Commonwealth and its political subdivisions shall not create or recognize a legal status for relationships of unmarried individuals that intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance, or effects of marriage. Nor shall this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions create or recognize another union, partnership, or other legal status to which is assigned the rights, benefits, obligations, qualities, or effects of marriage." Commonwealth of Virginia Ban on Gay Marriage

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

I've been trying to figure out where our differences lie and I think I've figured it out.

1) You blame Christians for using singular verses to justify violence against the GLBT community. I don't disagree with that. I think that its intolerant to do that. I do disagree that this is the only interpretation of the Bible.

2) My point is that those Christians don't always have the same Biblical view as the religion on the whole. In fact, my point is that you can't criticize the whole religion as violent and intolerant due to the actions of a minority. If you want to criticize the Christian community for not advocating for not taking a bigger stance against violence, then its something which should be levied against the nation as a whole because there are Christians who fight against violence and some secular bigots who turn a blind eye as well. If you know me by my works, then how do you reconcile the good works done by the majority of christians with the wayward works of the few. You have to look at each person on an individual level, which is all Im saying.

And just to let you know, I see nothing in the law that is particularly "hateful." Intolerant and unfair? Yeah I can see that. But I see nothing which validates violence against GLBTs or calls them less than human. I see a state exercising its power to refuse to give liscenses to people it doesn't want to. Virginia also doesn't allow prostitution, but I dont call the law "hateful" towards pimps and prostitutes. Intolerant of their lifestyles? Yes.

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