Phoenix Oct 28 - got hit hard with chemtrails. - Page 6 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

MattLarson · #76 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

You might address the whole issue instead of picking out one piece of it and explaining away the whole thing.

I cannot address your personal observations, as I do not have access to the same data.

Matt

Thematic-Device · #77 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

I have, mine just wasn't as superficial as yours. Is the Wiki your only source?

On velikovsky, no I've read some of his work, of course I can't slap a link to his book very readily now can i?

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Have you done any research on issue of chemtrails? Or are you just speaking extemporaneously?

I don't need to do research to realize that contrails aren't an evil chemical killing us all. I just need to be sane.

Thematic-Device · #78 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

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Originally Posted by MareTranquility

There is a lot of nonsense floating to the surface of this discussion--

And a lot of it comes from you. How much do I need to do your research for you?

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One of the suggestions that was made at the conference George Bush had at the White House to look at the question of global warming, was that we could use commercial jet airliners to seed the upper atmosphere with powdered metal flakes to increase the Earth's albedo (not LIBIDO, gentlemen) and thus reflect more solar radiation back into space. That's one possiblility that doesn't require a conspiracy.

Yes, the government secretly snuck these on to the airplanes and all the baggage handlers, maintenence crews, airplane pilots, government officials, senators, representatives, FAA officials, etc. are all in on it.

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Another is that the US and other countries are experimenting with weather modification and control--that's one of the uses for the HAARP project in Alaska. Increasing the electrical conductivity of the atmosphere or even changing it slightly might be a useful thing if one is using microwave energy to modify the weather. Another possiblility that doesn't require a conspiracy.

The HAARP project is to study the effect of the upper atmosphere and its interaction with solar winds / plasma effects from the sun. Not weather control. Maybe in 50 years we might have an understanding at that level. Not yet.

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With the air samples, filter residue samples, and particulates that have been taken from chemtrail sites and analyzed there is another possibility that arises. The government could be doing large scale testing of biological contaminant or innoculant dispersion.

A contaminent like.... Aircraft Exhaust!!!

Seriously, while the hell would the government be testing a biological contaminent on themselves and why the hell would they use such an innaccurate and questionable dispersion method.

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One use for this is the suggested seeding of the Martian atmosphere, from very high up, with microbes genetically engineered to live and produce oxygen in an attempt to terraform Mars and make it more habitable for humans. Again, no conspiracy necessary.

Yes because you know, such an experiment couldn't be reproduced in, oh, I don't know a lab. And upon successful completion the scientists would go running to the nobel prize commitee.

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An open mind is no use if you don't put things into it--doesn't mean that you have to believe all of them, but just that you know about them.

A open mind is a gullible mind if there is no selectivity in the though process. Lets talk about how FEMA is going to take over the US government, no wait, they're incompetent. Like most of our government.

Speakeasy · #79 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

Have you have not done any research into this issue? If not, then this must be very embarassing for you.

As a fan of conspiracy theories, yes, I've read and heard much about 'chemtrails'. So, no embarassment here. Just because I disagree that they exist doesn't mean I've done less research on the subject. It merely means I've reached a different conclusion than you.

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First you throw out all the evidence and then you make fun of the people who have been looking honestly at the issue. What in the world possesses you?

Huh? Before this post, I've seen you throw out very, very little in the way of evidence, but much in the way of calling others condescending and other unflattering things.

Let's start off with one particular aspect of chemtrails and debate that.

Speakeasy · #80 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

There is a lot of nonsense floating to the surface of this discussion--and what's the point? If you think this is nonsense, don't read it.

One of the suggestions that was made at the conference George Bush had at the White House to look at the question of global warming, was that we could use commercial jet airliners to seed the upper atmosphere with powdered metal flakes to increase the Earth's albedo (not LIBIDO, gentlemen) and thus reflect more solar radiation back into space. That's one possibility that doesn't require a conspiracy. Another is that the US and other countries are experimenting with weather modification and control--that's one of the uses for the HAARP project in Alaska. Increasing the electrical conductivity of the atmosphere or even changing it slightly might be a useful thing if one is using microwave energy to modify the weather. Another possibility that doesn't require a conspiracy.

With the air samples, filter residue samples, and particulates that have been taken from chemtrail sites and analyzed there is another possibility that arises. The government could be doing large scale testing of biological contaminant or innoculant dispersion. One use for this is the suggested seeding of the Martian atmosphere, from very high up, with microbes genetically engineered to live and produce oxygen in an attempt to terraform Mars and make it more habitable for humans. Again, no conspiracy necessary.

We should all bear in mind that the US government has a long history of experimenting on Americans. From the US Public Health Service program on syphilis, to the CIA experiments disseminating LSD in the various places via aerosols, to the radiation release experiments done on the people around the Hanford Nuclear Reservation, to the American soldiers that were deliberately exposed to radiation as they were marched into ground zero immediately after a nuclear detonation. We are dealing with people who have no scruples, how many years was the poison EDB (ethyl dibromide) used in jet fuel before it was outlawed? Just this spring the head of the Air Force publicly recommended testing the new microwave weapons on the American people.

An open mind is no use if you don't put things into it--doesn't mean that you have to believe all of them, but just that you know about them.

The problem with the above mentioned "no conspiracy" explanations is that the information of those tests taking place would be made available to the public. But they aren't. So there would have to be a conspiracy, as the government would be covertly spreading chemicals and whatnot in the atmosphere. I'd also like to note, that the vast majority of chemtrail believers are convinced the government is spraying some sort of mind control chemical or maybe even some sort of poison...which are much more serious (and in my opinion, far fetched) explanations than the ones you mentioned.

Every single airplane that takes flight has to pass airline inspections. During these inspections, the plane would surely fail if it had an extra compartment designed to release a chemical agent into the sky during flight. So, that leaves us three options that I can think of. Either the compartment to store these chemicals is easily removable and they are removed from the plane before the inspection and then put back on afterwards (kind of ridiculous, in my opinion), all the inspectors for the airline industry are in on the huge variety of chemtrail experiments going on (very far fetched, as we've heard no one speak in this century of 'chemtrails') or the chemtrails and compartments don't exist (far more likely, in my opinion).

Also, you made remarks about the US Government running these tests on it's citizens. "Chemtrails" show up in every single country and airspace (including over the oceans) that there are planes flying. So this would not be limited to a US Government conspiracy, it would have to be a massive worldwide conspiracy, helped out by every single airline in the world, helped out by every single airline inspector in the world. And not one of them have spilled the beans.

Ash · #81 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

If you are not interested in this thread maybe you should go someplace else to post instead of burdening us down with you large load ignorance on this subject. I appreciate that it is probably enjoyable for you to take cheap shots at others and make fun of things you know nothing about, but maybe you've done it enough here and you should go someplace else. Thank you.

I think not. I reiterate, the burdon of proof lies on you. You are trying to sell us on this ridiculous conspiracy theory and we are not buying. Why is that? Oh and by the way, you did refer to B-29's as a jet, just to show how little credibility that you do have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

Yes, and many other kinds of jets too, but what is really rare are the formations of multi-engine jets flying back and forth producing a grid of trails. I haven't found anyone with a reasonable explanation for that yet.

Now, if you were to provide any shred of evidence, I would listen (not necessarily agree), but you are just blowing smoke. If the chem trails happen where you live, then please provide a picture!

Be as pissed at me as you'd like, then you can ask if I care. I think that the assertations presented here are ludicrous and all of your long winded blathering has done nothing but convince me that I am right!

MareTranquility · #82 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thematic-Device

On velikovsky, no I've read some of his work, of course I can't slap a link to his book very readily now can i?
I don't need to do research to realize that contrails aren't an evil chemical killing us all. I just need to be sane.

I didn't say that. If you want to set up strawmen to knock down, it's okay with me.

MareTranquility · #83 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thematic-Device

And a lot of it comes from you. How much do I need to do your research for you?Yes, the government secretly snuck these on to the airplanes and all the baggage handlers, maintenence crews, airplane pilots, government officials, senators, representatives, FAA officials, etc. are all in on it.The HAARP project is to study the effect of the upper atmosphere and its interaction with solar winds / plasma effects from the sun. Not weather control. Maybe in 50 years we might have an understanding at that level. Not yet.A contaminent like.... Aircraft Exhaust!!!
Seriously, while the hell would the government be testing abiologicalcontaminent on themselves and why the hell would they use such an innaccurate and questionable dispersion method.
Yes because you know, such an experiment couldn't be reproduced in, oh, I don't know a lab. And upon successful completion the scientists would go running to the nobel prize commitee.A open mind is a gullible mind if there is no selectivity in the though process. Lets talk about how FEMA is going to take over the US government, no wait, they're incompetent. Like most of our government.

You need to work on your reading comprehension, it's one of the reasons that I don't respond to your posts anymore. Thanks for trying to play though.

iamwhatiseem · #84 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Can't wait till the movie comes out...I'll bet Tom Cruise will play the guy that solves everything...probably called something like "CT - death from above"

MareTranquility · #85 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speakeasy

As a fan of conspiracy theories, yes, I've read and heard much about 'chemtrails'. So, no embarassment here. Just because I disagree that they exist doesn't mean I've done less research on the subject. It merely means I've reached a different conclusion than you.

Huh? Before this post, I've seen you throw out very, very little in the way of evidence, but much in the way of calling others condescending and other unflattering things.

Let's start off with one particular aspect of chemtrails and debate that.

Perfect. Are there any samples of material that have been collected and analyzed that are purported to be from these trails?

MareTranquility · #86 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speakeasy

The problem with the above mentioned "no conspiracy" explanations is that the information of those tests taking place would be made available to the public. But they aren't. So there would have to be a conspiracy, as the government would be covertly spreading chemicals and whatnot in the atmosphere. I'd also like to note, that the vast majority of chemtrail believers are convinced the government is spraying some sort of mind control chemical or maybe even some sort of poison...which are much more serious (and in my opinion, far fetched) explanations than the ones you mentioned.

Every single airplane that takes flight has to pass airline inspections. During these inspections, the plane would surely fail if it had an extra compartment designed to release a chemical agent into the sky during flight. So, that leaves us three options that I can think of. Either the compartment to store these chemicals is easily removable and they are removed from the plane before the inspection and then put back on afterwards (kind of ridiculous, in my opinion), all the inspectors for the airline industry are in on the huge variety of chemtrail experiments going on (very far fetched, as we've heard no one speak in this century of 'chemtrails') or the chemtrails and compartments don't exist (far more likely, in my opinion).

Also, you made remarks about the US Government running these tests on it's citizens. "Chemtrails" show up in every single country and airspace (including over the oceans) that there are planes flying. So this would not be limited to a US Government conspiracy, it would have to be a massive worldwide conspiracy, helped out by every single airline in the world, helped out by every single airline inspector in the world. And not one of them have spilled the beans.

"We should all bear in mind that the US government has a long history of experimenting on Americans. From the US Public Health Service program on syphilis, to the CIA experiments disseminating LSD in the various places via aerosols, to the radiation release experiments done on the people around the Hanford Nuclear Reservation, to the American soldiers that were deliberately exposed to radiation as they were marched into ground zero immediately after a nuclear detonation. We are dealing with people who have no scruples, how many years was the poison EDB (ethyl dibromide) used in jet fuel before it was outlawed? Just this spring the head of the Air Force publicly recommended testing the new microwave weapons on the American people."

None of the above testing was revealed to the public when it was underway.

As to the rest of your objections, I think some of them are valid, I don't have the answers to all the questions AND THAT IS WHY I HAVE OBJECTED TO THE RAIN OF CRAP THAT YOU AND OTHERS HAVE PUT ONTO THE PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD WHO ARE TRYING TO DISCUSS THIS SUBJECT. I would like to have more information, I've never made any conclusions about what the chemtrails are, only that I think there is something here that bears examination. Don't fall into the response pattern of Thematic.

MareTranquility · #87 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

I think not. I reiterate, the burdon of proof lies on you. You are trying to sell us on this ridiculous conspiracy theory and we are not buying. Why is that? Oh and by the way, you did refer to B-29's as a jet, just to show how little credibility that you do have.

Now, if you were to provide any shred of evidence, I would listen (not necessarily agree), but you are just blowing smoke. If the chem trails happen where you live, then please provide a picture!

Be as pissed at me as you'd like, then you can ask if I care. I think that the assertations presented here are ludicrous and all of your long winded blathering has done nothing but convince me that I am right!

What puzzles me the most is why people cannot discuss this without the vitriol. I have never posted any conclusions about what the trails are, I just would like to get some more information because I have seen and read things that make me question what's going on. Why do you have to come on here and pretend that I'm "trying to sell you" something. Show me where I said that, I didn't, I've been trying to discuss this without all the rancor and name calling.

MattLarson · #88 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

So you are only interested in responses that are based on the belief that chemtrails are not contrails, but rather must be some secret chemical spraying program?

Matt

Speakeasy · #89 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

Perfect. Are there any samples of material that have been collected and analyzed that are purported to be from these trails?

Kind of...but not really.

Clifford E. Carnicom claims to have found high amounts of barium in the atmosphere where he tested. The problem is, he did the complete collection and analysis himself, instead of having it done (or verified) by an independant organization that doesn't have any sort of vested interest in the outcome of the samples. If he was serious, he could've had his samples sent and analyzed from an independant lab, for not much money. This didn't happen. Mr.Carnicom sells books about Chemtrails, so the 'positive' result of barium is very much in his interests. He also runs the fabulous site AEROSOL CRIMES & COVER UP.

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Because barium quickly becomes oxidized in air, it is difficult to obtain this metal in its pure form.

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At low doses, barium acts as a muscle stimulant, while higher doses affect the nervous system, causing cardiac irregularities, tremors, weakness, anxiety, dyspnea and paralysis.

source

Other than that, I am not familiar with any sort of collected samples or analysis of supposed chemicals that originated from supposed 'chemtrails'.

Speakeasy · #90 (**permalink**) 10-31-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

"We should all bear in mind that the US government has a long history of experimenting on Americans. From the US Public Health Service program on syphilis, to the CIA experiments disseminating LSD in the various places via aerosols, to the radiation release experiments done on the people around the Hanford Nuclear Reservation, to the American soldiers that were deliberately exposed to radiation as they were marched into ground zero immediately after a nuclear detonation. We are dealing with people who have no scruples, how many years was the poison EDB (ethyl dibromide) used in jet fuel before it was outlawed? Just this spring the head of the Air Force publicly recommended testing the new microwave weapons on the American people."

None of the above testing was revealed to the public when it was underway.

You're forgetting that 'chemtrails' are a global phenomena, not just limited to the borders of the United States. Not only do you have to show that the US government has a history of testing on their citizens, but every single other nation on the planet that has air traffic. The idea of chemtrails is a global conspiracy, not a national one.

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As to the rest of your objections, I think some of them are valid, I don't have the answers to all the questions AND THAT IS WHY I HAVE OBJECTED TO THE RAIN OF CRAP THAT YOU AND OTHERS HAVE PUT ONTO THE PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD WHO ARE TRYING TO DISCUSS THIS SUBJECT. I would like to have more information, I've never made any conclusions about what the chemtrails are, only that I think there is something here that bears examination. Don't fall into the response pattern of Thematic.

I believe the replies so far have been a mix of people finding the idea pretty ridiculous (to most, it's akin to someone coming on here and saying that trees are really aliens or some such) and the fact that conformfailure is known to be a bit stubborn when discussing these things. I've always been more than happy to review the links and information he provides, but getting him to return the favor and give my side of the argument a chance is like pulling teeth.