[quote=MareTranquility;838782]It seems that there have been other samples that have been examined in labs.
http://www.educate-yourself.org/ct/ctarticle12.shtml This one was interesting in that they talk about EDB being found in the samples.

I wonder why that would be, considering we're dealing with airplane exhaust fumes mixing with moisture in the atmosphere.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contami.../ethylene.html

So we have aviation fuel, which, so long as it is not detected above .05 ppb in drinking water is considered acceptable to the EPA.

You know how much shit has been implicated in gulf war syndrome? Further this bacteria has a higher link (88%) to arthritis then it does to anything maniacle.

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/38/1/90

further

http://journals.cambridge.org/action...line&aid=66685

So instead we have here a bacteria which is naturally occuring, not linked to the gulf war syndrome, and likely not something that the government cares to test, unless their pot is to make us all arthritic.

Chaff looks completely different from a contrail. For example.



http://www.navy.mil.nz/take-a-pic/ot...aff-firing.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGsRrm-NmW0

Additionally, chaff launchers are fairly large. E.g.

http://www.usswisconsin.org/Pictures...ey%20Chaff.JPG
http://www.hazegray.org/features/hiddensee/hidd15.jpg

Hiding a large number of them on a commercial airplane without anyone noticing would require a massive conspiracy.

I'm still not convinced that these are anything but contrails.

That's why I don't respond to you anymore, you don't have anything to say.

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

You do realize I just refuted every single one of your points? So its not that I don't have anything to say, simply that I don't have anything you want to hear. And there's a big difference.

Personally, I'm content with the explanations that Thematic-Device has offered us. I'll verify and do a little bit of my own research later on in the day, when I get a free moment.

__________________
"Anyone that needs what they want, and doesn’t want what they need
I want nothing to do with
And to do what I want
And to do what I please
Is first on my to-do list"
-Gnarls Barkley, "Going On" lyrics

My rules regarding conspiracy theories:

1. What is the motivation of the theory?

Just seeing something inexplicable does not provide enough motivation for a conspiracy theory to get my attention. I see no reason to suspect anything worthy of a cover up. Not only is there no claim of any specific affect but there's no reason to guess that it is anything other than a contrail. Rain falls and I don't test each drop just in case it is laced with chemicals from some nefarious plot.

Likewise, is the motivation for creating a conspiracy theory nefarious itself? Is someone out to make money, etc...?

2. What evidence is offered?

In this case, not much. It sure sounds like contrails to me. No pictures! Should be pretty easy to post a picture. I did a Google image search on "chemtrail" and found only one photo that looked remarkable in any way.

I'm not one to dismiss conspiracy theories but this one doesn't add up.

Maretranquility,
I've got quite a bit of experience with aviation and I'd like to offer you a very good answer to one of your questions.

You mentioned that you're suspicious of chemtrails because you only see them on days that they criss cross like graph paper in the sky. This is a picture of a "Sectional Chart": I'm sorry I couldn't find a bigger picture and you could see what look like highways in the sky. If you laid sectional charts covering the US side by side, you'd see that indeed they do criss cross and make distinct patterns in some areas.
What has changed in commercial passenger air traffic over the past 10 years has been the evolution away from "hub and spoke" operations to "point to point". This means that the traditional patterns are shifting. In addition, airlines routes are not static over the years or even over the seasons so the patterns shift again.
Traditional "bank" arrivals and departures make it easier for business travelers to reach their destination in time for meetings at 08:00 or 09:00. This means that near any significant destination, there will be many planes arriving and departing within the same time frame. This makes it more likely that you'd have multiple contrails near an airport.
To help regulate the airspace over the US, all traffic headed in a general direction are assigned an odd number flight level and all planes headed the opposite direction are assigned even numbered flight level for separation - yes, there is that much traffic that it is a concern. In fact, mandated vertical separation requirements over the atlantic are slowly getting smaller too! Point being that you don't always see everything that's up there and when you do see airplanes criss cross pattern, they are at different flight levels and you can't even tell - oh well, what's a thousand feet here and there?
The trails that airplanes leave in the atmosphere are there even when you can't see the contrail. As many folks have posted excellent sources to explain this. On the right day, you'll see many contrails, another day, the exact same planes could be in the air at the same altitude and time and you'd hardly notice.
It's a good experiment; log what you see in the sky from a particular place at the same time every day for a month. And here I'm going to sound a little snotty: How difficult would it be to get a sectional chart for your little area, a book called a "SkyGuide" (listing all scheduled passenger flights), make yourself a chart of your slice of sky, and plot the trails vs what you can actually see?
In addition, you will have several miscellaneous aircraft that are privately owned or belonging to the military that will ad another trail here and there but there won't be too much variation over the course of time.

Conspiracy theory has a bad name because people are half assed about it! There ARE conpiracies worthy of attention. If someone wants to post some real evidence of something odd, go for it. So far, it's mostly crap.

When I was a kid in Wyoming, (not much air traffic, or car traffic, or pedestrian traffic... ), I remember chasing an airplanes path from one corner of the playground to the opposite, every day at recess. The plane ALWAYS left a contrail and it was just about identical every day. That was back in the days of regulation. So; cold climate, high altitude, mandated scheduled passenger aircraft makes a single, dependable contrail. In the summer, it was either not visible due to weather or the schedule changed and it wasn't there. ?

As for formation flying: The military is allowed to use whatever airspace they dang well want, they simply anounce themselves and you stay out of the way. They're supposed to be watching you not vice versa. (shrugs). Although I'm a couple hundred miles from the closest AFB, I am well aware that they like to train very nearby.

In addition, it is not uncommon for airlines to want in-flight photo's which obviously takes more than one airplane. My husbands done this - one on either side to take pictures. (shrugs)

Lastly, some of the stuff I've read on the "chemtrail" sites is just crazy. I don't want to hear someone saying they saw an all white jet with no tail number leaving a "chemtrail" in the sky. Bullshit! If you can see a jet closely enough to tell that it's all white let alone that there is no small number painted on the tail, leaving a "chemtrail" or contrail in the sky, I want to know EXACTLY what kind of airplane that was. I worked in and around airplanes for a long time and I still can't tell what's what when they're at an altitude to leave a contrail. If they're low enough to see then there's a lot of humidity and the plane's heavy - very common - a person ought to be able to do a teency bit of research and tell me what kind of plane it is.

This theory is apparently so lame that it isn't worth the effort of investigation.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Thanks, Mr. Easy, I'd appreciate it. I find that in one session of research I have uncovered the fact that the government IS spraying stuff out of their jets all over this country and they are lying about it. The material being spread in the air is made up of tiny fibers (fibrous material has been collected and sent to the EPA for examination and the officials have stonewalled). The most common symptom reported by people after these "sprayings" is lung problems (tiny fibers have been proven to cause all kinds of lung problems, especially in people who have asthma). So we have gone from NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING in one day to a widespread program of spreading huge quantities of tiny fibers at high altitude all over the country from military jets.

Ethyl dibromide was banned in this country for being a carcinogen/mutagen back in the 1970's. Why is the government still spraying it or using it in jet fuel?

As yet the cause of Gulf War Syndrome has not been absolutely determined, research continues.

Going from NOTHING happening and I'm insane for asking, to a country-wide spraying program by military aircraft that the government has been lying about is good progress for one day--despite Thematic--so I think I will continue to look into this. If you do as well perhaps we can come to some kind of resolution. We know they’re lying, their lips are moving.

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Yes, some of the stuff is crazy, but I've not yet accused anyone or said the word conspiracy. I'm curious about this because of what I've seen. Thank you for doing the work on the flyways map. I worked for 16 years in agri-business and I spent a huge amount of time in the open with a full view of the sky. There were flyways across our valley and the occasional military jet, but the thing that struck me was that on 6-7 occasions I saw mulit-engine jets flying in formation (3 of them) and they went over in formation and came back in formation, again and again till the sky had a checkerboard pattern across it. I could not see markings on the jets because they were too high. Commercial planes do not fly in formation that I know of, so I suspect this was military.

If you go to my post #105 you will find a link to a GAO report about the spraying of "chaff" from military jets. This is not something "so lame that it isn't worth the effort of investigation" in my opinion. Millitary jets are spreading this stuff out all over the country according to the GAO and it is made up of tiny fibers that hang in the air for extended periods of time. Up until now the military and civilian sources in the government have been denying that ANYTHING like this was being done. Were you aware that this spraying was in progress?

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

If you don't know what chemtrails are how do you know that is what you are seeing?

__________________
New to the forum? Check out our Newbie's Guide!
Interested in supporting USPO? Click here!

First, don't be offended by the word conspiracy theory. If you theorize a conspiracy, it's a conspiracy theory. This is why I get ticked off when folks just throw out something that sounds crazy with no information, no links, no pics, no discussion...and then get mad when people write him/her off. You see what I mean? My life is way too short to investigate every rain drop.

No, I wasn't aware the government was doing this and I'm glad you're looking into something that has peaked your curiosity. That's the entire point. The last thing I'd do is take conformfailure's or ANYONES word for some sinister government plot. That makes as much sense as listening to Pat Robertson...right? Am I right?

I love conspiracy theories. They're fascinating. Usually end up being wrong but not always.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

No you went to no evidence of anything, to all evidence pointing to something completely contrary and a conclusion.

Most uses have been banned, its use as an anti-knock additive of leaded fuel has not been. AVGAS is one type of aviation fuel where is can still be used.

But a number of things have been excluded.

Ignore the evidence if you want.

JHC mentioned that commercial planes did during photoshoots. If they were military they were more likely to have been practicing in flight refueling.

For example








Yes, I'm sure military jets do spray chaff all over the place, its great for photoshoots, and it works well with training. But Chaff they spray and a contrail look nothing alike.

Considering how off the beam some of these conspiracy kooks are, I'm beginning to believe that there really IS some kind of mind-destroying chemical floating around in our atmostphere.

__________________

This is true. But the danger in that, (and a point I think Maretranquility is also trying to make in a round about way), is that there are conspiracy theories that end up being proven conpiracies. Yes, Nixon did spy on his opponents. Yes, the military did test all kinds of shit on servicemen. Yes, tobacco companies really did hide the truth about their products.

I think conpiracies happen all the time. I'd be willing to bet that my government is involved in secret prisons, rendition of innocent people, and torture, for instance. These things have had enough exposure in the press that they're difficult to deny, IMO.

Those are pretty friggin big and serious conspiracies. Is it so hard to believe there might be plains spraying chemicals over the general population? Well you'd think that a persons first thought would have been terrorism! But no, the first presumption is our own government is spraying us with chemicals - sorta makes you think there's an agenda from the get-go. Sure, I could believe our government would do such a thing or allow such a thing but I don't see any reason to jump to conclusions.

What if it's just something like Miracle Grow for Human Beans? Or, contrails...

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

oh, and the military/government have never denied using chaff or flares...

In fact they've publicized it for photoshoots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P9NvE_YPNc

They just aren't the same thing as the contrails, oh I'm sorry "chem trails".

So now the burning question on everyone's mind:

Now that the Dems are in charge, will all the "chemtrails" disappear?

Well?

Matt

__________________
De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum