Originally Posted by EricOKC

No - i equate the fact that a tranny is born defective with the fact that there are some who are born with the desire to kill and eat people.

The connection you should draw is, just because someone is born with a certain disorder does not in any way make said disorder something society should accept and condone.

BTW - im not angry at all. I just simply wont let people get away with making statements designed to absolve themselves of all responsibility for their chosen behavior.

Originally Posted by EricOKC

So because the AMA says its a birth defect, then it really is a birth defect? I never said that the AMA said it was birth defect, the AMA hasn't taken a public stand on the subject as far as I know, but what they have done is recognize that it is a treatable condition and they have been using the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care to successfully treat us for more than 30 years.

The AMA also said that homosexuality was a mental disorder. Does that mean they were wrong then or wrong now? Many medical people have said things in the past that they now realize were in error. Some people are capable of learning. This is called progress, it's an evolutionary process that is pushed forward by research and discovery.

Bottom line - and this is how the vast majority of the world (men and women, gay and straight) will see it - is tranny's are quite simply fucked up. At one time the vast majority of the world (men and women, gay and straight) thought the world was flat too, doesn't mean that they were right. No other way to put it. There are severe mental disorders at work with a transsexual and while that is unfortunate for them, it doesnt mean the rest of the world has to just tolerate it. If mental disorders are not to be tolerated, what should we do with the people? Institutions, or just stuff them in ovens? Wouldn't it be better to be able to treat them and help them become productive members of society?

I'm glad for you that you're on the road to becoming comfortable with yourself, but dont for one moment dare to presume that the rest of us should accomodate you. I'm not sure how you feel that I have asked to be accomodated other than asking to receive the same consideration that everyone else sees as their due. As far as I'm concerned, its no different than someone who is born with a mental disorder that "causes" them to kill and eat people. I am going to discriminate people like that and advocate they be dealt with in a manner best for SOCIETY, not best for their mental well being. The implication here is that what's good for us will, by definition, be bad for society. Why that assumption? Can you give me an example? What would you recommend for society to do to us?

So in short, tranny's are discriminated against because humanity has decided they should be. I realize you have a hard time accepting life for what it is, but some things you simply cannot change.

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

White humanity decided that black humanity was put here for slavery, some black people had a hard time accepting that, but somethings can change if people try.

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

I'm not looking for pity or special dispensation,

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

I'd just like people to stop killing us, raping us, beating us, and preventing us from getting adequate medical care. I extend those rights to you and all others, I'm not asking for anything that I would deny to anyone else.

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

I gather that your (fill in your own word, I was going to use "anger" but I know you'll deny that)____________ is aimed at all crippled people and all sick people?

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

Blind people,

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

people with Tourette Syndrome,

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

how about crippled military veterans?

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

Why are you so seemingly angry?

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

My post was an attempt to educate about a genetic condition that very few people know about.

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

What prompted you to write with such venom?

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

You act like I'm stealing your money. Nothing I have said, done, or advocated has any impact on you personally, does it? Why write and accuse me of things that weren't in my posts?

Originally Posted by EricOKC

So in short, tranny's are discriminated against because humanity has decided they should be. I realize you have a hard time accepting life for what it is, but some things you simply cannot change.

Originally Posted by EricOKC

The connection you should draw is, just because someone is born with a certain disorder does not in any way make said disorder something society should accept and condone.

BTW - im not angry at all. I just simply wont let people get away with making statements designed to absolve themselves of all responsibility for their chosen behavior.

Originally Posted by EricOKC

Yes you are. When it comes to the point where you are calling me a liar it is no longer a civilized discussion.

Really? You mean that happens all the time? You mean it is legal to kill, rape or beat a transexual just because it is a transexual? I was using those as examples of things that are happening--I didn't say it was legal. Yes, those things happen far too often.

I must have missed those laws. Could you point them out to me? I'm unable to see them anywhere in The Texas Penal Code I suspect that isn't all you've missed.

As far as preventing your access to medical care, you have the same access to emergency care as anyone regardless of your ability to pay. Everything else comes down to what you can and cannot afford - just like everyone else. You know not whereof you speak.

Nope - only those who attempt to use their disability as a vehicle to gain preferential treatment. I'm not sure what preferential treatment you see us getting.


What about them? I fail to see where any of their rights are limited, just as i dont see where yours are. Sure, they cant drive, or do anything which requires sight, but those limitations are imposed by the situational reality, not by some discriminatory law.

These are people whom you likely dont want to have employed in a position where they might have to deal with others, like sales for example, and they will be sharply limited because of that, but is the world supposed to simply ignore their outbursts because they "cant control it"? Yes, just exactly, the disease can be controlled fairly well with drugs but little mishaps will occur. Why is it so important to attack these people for something that they were born with? I don't understand your anger, except that perhaps you feel like you didn't get your fair share of something and now you don't want others to get something that you didn't.

What about them? I have respect for their sacrifice and i want them to receive whatever care they need, but if you dont see the difference between an injury earned in service to your country and a mental defect such as your own, i really cannot help you. So a military injury is more honorable than a birth defect? Birth defects are dishonorable? Is this like punishment because a person was evil in a previous lifetime or are you actually one of the Christians who believe that God makes people crippled because He wants them to live that way?

Im not. Expressing a viewpoint which does not agree with yours and to you appears harsh or cold is not anger. I'm just simply not the kind of person swayed by emotional pleas from those I do not personally know for things i have no obligation to give. What have I asked you to give?

Correction: A condition which very few of us CARE about.If you con't care about it why are spending so much time talking to me about it? I am puzzled by the amount of effort you are putting into this. Why? So you can bash me and other people who you see as "less than"? Unless someone's been under a rock or in a cave for the past 40 years or so, he knows about transexuals. You obviously don't know, I meet people all the time who are just as ignorant on the subject as your posts demonstrate you are.

There was no venom. Facts and differing views are not venomous. Tone, Eric, the tone is venomous. They may be painful for you to accept, but thats really just too bad. You sound afraid, afraid that others, who are not as deserving, are going to get more than you.

Well here's a newsflash: You were stating things which indicated that you were trying to take my money or advocate things which would have an impact on me. Wild accusation, I think. Please cite ANYTHING IN ANY OF MY ORIGINAL POSTS THAT WILL COST YOU MONEY.

For example, by bringing up the Winn-Dixie driver, you were implying that the company was wrong in terminating him. The further implication in this is that you would want companies to not be allowed to fire someone for his out of work behavior.That violates the employers right to hire and fire at will and for any reason he sees fit - it also violates the right of private property, AND raises the cost of the company's products. (if you dont understand that, get thee to Econ 101). Black people have struggled with your attitude for generations, sadly they and we will have to continue to do so for at least one more generation. Winn-Dixie actually lost money on the deal because they fired an excellent truck driver and had to hire and train a new one--and it cost them money because they were afraid of people with attitudes like yours.

Then there is the issue of restrooms. The vast majority of humanity is quite aware of their sex, and knows that humanity comes in two flavors - male and female. By pointing out that a transexual "feels" (theres that word again. When did feelings become superior to facts? When did YOUR feelings become irrelevant? Or is it just other people's feelings that don't matter? You've made it very clear in your posts that you feel like a very sure, masculine, virile man's man. Should the world discount your feelings just as you are discounting the feelings of others?) uncomfortable in one or the other, implies that you would wish for a restroom labled "other". This would increase the costs to businesses, or possibly eliminate the idea of public restrooms altogether. Did you campaign against handicapped restrooms too? The idea that allowing trans-people to use the restroom of their presentation costs you nothing at all. It's only when they are barred from the bathrooms that it becomes a problem. This would most certainly have an impact upon me as well as the rest of the world. You are denying the scientific fact that people are born of mixed gender? Hermaphroditic people do not exist? Get thee to Biology 101.

All of your other examples indicate nothing more than your own frustration in having to deal with your personal problem and imply your desire to have the real world change to suit you. Personally i find that whiny attitude quite offensive.

So you were born confused. Big deal. Where did you get the idea that you could tell others they MUST accomodate who or whatever you think you are this week,This is an excellent example of how little you know about transsexuality as I mentioned above. Some people--not you apparently--are willing to learn about things BEFORE condemning them. and that we must modify our social behavior to make you feel better? By what objective standard did you decide this was acceptable?

Originally Posted by EricOKC

In point of fact, it was blacks who decided that other blacks could be sold as slaves.

Dont let reality get in the way though...

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

They SHOULDN'T get any discrimination at all, should they? For a birth defect?

Many of the laws against discrimination list sexual orientation specifically but do not mention gender presentation and this has been narrowly defined by the courts to say that transsexuals are not covered. An example would be a person who drove truck for Winn-Dixie, he had done so for nearly two decades and had an excellent work record. He was fired for cross-dressing during his free time because the company said that if people found out that it would reflect badly on Winn-Dixie. The courts finally upheld the firing because they said that transsexuals are not mentioned in the law and thus are not covered by it.

Another example would be a transsexual (male to female) who is in the process of transitioning under the aegis of the AMA guidelines which require living one full year in the gender of choice before being allowed to get sexual reassingment surgery. I had to live as a female full-time for one year, earning my living, and passing in society before I could get the necessary surgery. Had I been arrested--even by mistake--I would have been thrown into the male holding cell because I still had a penis. The fact that I had with me at all times the documents from my doctors and therapists would not have helped. T-girls such as myself are usually raped and often killed in these situations. The City of Eugene, Oregon was forced by the local Christian community to pass an ordinance preventing people like me from using the public women's bathrooms during my year of living full-time to get permission for surgery. Men's bathrooms were definitely out, so...what's to be done? The Christian argument was that they didn't want men dressing up like women to get into women's bathrooms for nefarious purposes--this despite the fact that according to the FBI there is not a single case of this ever happening in US history.

As a transsexual I can be fired from my job or evicted from my apartment, I can be denied medical care--which has happened to me twice--and I can marry, or not, depending on which state I live in and whether the state I was born in will allow me to change my birth certificate. Airport security can be a nightmare for transsexuals because getting all one's documentation changed to match one's gender presentation can only be accomplished with legal permission and letters from therapists--some of which hinge on having lived full-time for a year (called a real-life test), which leaves one out in the cold for that year. An example of the problem is at the beginning of the real-life test if I had taken a new job rather than try to transition in my old job (for which I could be legally fired), if I fill out my employment application with my gender of choice (female) which is shown on my Driver's License, and give my Social Security number to my new employer, when he sends in my first pay-stub to the Social Security people with my payment he will receive a notice saying that I am not "female" and then he can come back on me for lying on my application and I can be fired. I can also be prosecuted for filing a false Social Security form. The problem is that I could not get my Social Security gender designation changed until I had the surgery and brought notarized records from the hospital and the doctor to the Social Security office to prove it.

I was luckier than many transsexuals, I had a piece of property which I could mortgage to get the $15,000 for surgery and extra money to pay my expenses while I healed up afterwards. Many transsexuals are too poor to ever afford the astronomical expense involved in getting surgery, so they spend the rest of their lives in legal limbo hoping not to get caught up in the wheels of the legal machinery.

Originally Posted by Swoop187

OK...A birth defect.. Would you consider schizophrenia a birth defect?

LOOK, there is for sure something wrong with a person that wants to transform them self into the oppisite sex.

The only people i actually feel for who are transexuals are the ones that accually have a damn birth defect and those people are the ones that have an anatomically correct body except for the private parts.

Besides even if someone truely believes or even feels that they are the opposite sex why should they even imagine society should except them? Shit sometimes i feel like knocking a person out when they say some shit that pisses me off but i DONT because why???? its not acceptable in society.

If you want to ask why its not acceptable in society i will tell you like i done told you about 999,999 times...NORMALITY also a man dressed as a woman currupts society in general..... what the fuck do you tell a 8 year old when he asks "why is that man wearing a dress" ??? .... any fucking answer you give him or her they will think that "you have a choice in being a man or a woman"

look, i wouldnt look at a transexual with hate i would look at them as a person with a mental illness.

Originally Posted by Swoop187

OK...A birth defect.. Would you consider schizophrenia a birth defect?

LOOK, there is for sure something wrong with a person that wants to transform them self into the oppisite sex.

look, i wouldnt look at a transexual with hate i would look at them as a person with a mental illness.