Ok, this may sound like a slightly silly thread, but the question is genuine, and one I've been meaning to ask for a while.

Why is it socially more acceptable for women to be lesbian than for men to be gay? If a woman tells her female friends that she is lesbian, it's usually not a big deal, but the same thing cannot be said of the male sex. Women also seem to be far more considerate towards homosexuals, both male and female, than men do.

Is it just that men in general are more homophobic than women? Or are there double standards at work here?

I personally think that it should be just as acceptable socially to be gay as it is lesbian ...

I dunno'.

There's a guy I've known for about the last four years or so; plays drums in a friend's band. Only about a year ago did he "come out" and acknowledge that he's gay.

Didn't make a damn bit of difference to me, and it doesn't seem to matter to anyone else who knows him, either. He was a nice guy before we knew he was gay, and he's done nothing to change our opinion of him...

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This is an easy question to answer, IMO. The "state", including media, religion, etc are predominantly run by middle-aged conservative white males. Homosexuality between males is viewed by these men as being confronting, yet homosexuality between women is an avenue of one of the most common heterosexual male sexual fantasies: being with two women. Why do you think that most straight porn movies feature lesbian sex acts? I wonder if it were only lesbians asking for marriage rights, would there be as much of a commotion?

It should be, but as long as 14 year olds are calling their 10 year old neighbors 'fags' when the 10 year old pisses them off...before the 10 year old even knows what the word means...that's the way things will be. Kids understand the contempt behind the word...and once they learn what it means the contempt ends up being passed on to the concept behind the word. So, when the 10 year old turns 14...he passes the word on to his 10 year old friend, and the contempt associated with it. Cycle repeats itself.

As long as kids who don't even know what the word means use it as a synonym for weakness or social ineptitude, the connotation will remain. However, to your traditional heterosexual male who has been taught that fag means weak and socially inept, being sexually attracted to females is within the realm of 'normal.' Therefore, when one woman is attracted to another, rather than being associated with 'fag' it is instead 'normal.'

Disclaimer : I am in no way claiming that I believe this to be right, but instead, simply what is.

I've never observed this behavior among women. In fact, in high school it seemed that the teasing among women was far far less frequent and less severe than among men. Of the 20 or so fights I witnessed in high school, only 2 fights were among women, the rest men. Statistically speaking, women do tend to be less agressive than men. Also, the high school female social structures that I observed seemed to be much less based off physical prowess but instead off sexual attractiveness. The lesser agressiveness and lesser tendency to rate one's 'value' off their physical capabilities result in far fewer situations where one feels the need to throw their 'biggest and best insult.' Hence, with fewer fights running outside the scope of the conflict (thowing unrelated insults) and fewer fights in general...lesbian just doesn't seem to have picked up as a 'trump card' insult. Without the negative connotation being connected to the word - when the meaning of the word is learned, lesbian simply means what it is, instead of it being a synonym for a serious insult.

Disclaimer : I am fully aware that this last paragraph is more than likely me speaking out my ass.

And finally, due to the fact that school age social structures for women are based off sexual attractiveness and hence sexual conquest, 'gay' at least in a few women that I've observed is often considered to be a MAJOR obstacle to overcome. So, instead of hating the gay man (because after all, 'fag' means 'weak and socially inept') he's instead a very lucrative target.

Tip : It's easier to pick up straight women at a gay bar than it is at a straight bar. Trust me.

So to sum this up - the reasons for the differences between the treatment of lesbians and gays are a combined result of societal and anthropologic factors.

I think a big part of it is that we are a society that loves to be macho. Nothing wrong with a tom boy but nobody likes a sissy. Same reason why women can wear men's clothing but men can't dress like women without some social repercussions. Even get away with it because they are attractive to heterosexual men when feminine and are usually basing their actions on what men want when they are most accepted. That's my opinion anyway.

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Then he's lucky to have partners like you guys!

Most guys wouldn't be so accepting. ESPECIALLY not in a band or something.

Good point, Noah. I didn't think of it that way.

If only lesbians were to ask for marriage rights, nah, I doubt there'd be a commotion - society would be far more accepting of lesbians adopting kids too. JMO.

Thanks for your lengthy post, lurker. No, none of it seemed as if you were speaking out your ass. Actually all valid points. You are basically saying it's due to social conditioning of males, which is pretty much what the others are saying too.

Just one thing: What did you mean by this:

I don't doubt you, but what would straight women be doing at gay bars? Other than be there to "make friends"?

I can answer that one for you Rahul; as a gay man you see flocks of straight women at gay bars all the time. They go there with their gay male friends. Women I know comment all the time about the different attitude and atmosphere there. People are more friendly, less abusive, and more respectful of them than the treatment they would receive at other clubs. In other words, the get to spend a night surrounded by friendly men who aren't trying to hit on them. Trust me, if you were to go to a mixed gay club, at least 3/4 of all women present would be straight.

I know, and I agree - tons of women have gay male friends for precisely the reason you stated - that the men aren't trying to hit upon them.

What I'm saying is that why would these women be cool with a straight man hitting upon them in a gay bar, since the reason they went there was NOT to be hit upon in the first place?

The original quote was "Tip : It's easier to pick up straight women at a gay bar than it is at a straight bar. Trust me.
"

Historically, the anti-gay men idea got a running start with the Code of Hammurabi about 2000 years BC. Hammurabi was a Syrian King who ruled over a very violent land-acquistion culture that invaded an area, killed all the people, and then repopulated rapidly to hold the land. Homosexual men didn't help with this project and thus, were killed immediately, but lesbians could be raped and forced to bear children so they were accepted. Much of the violent nonsense in the Old Testament is actually just plagarized stories about Hammurabi and his folks. Much of the Law of Moses was lifted word for word out of the Code of Hammaurabi.

Women are second class citizens according to all of the desert religions, and as such are traditionally not taken much more seriously than children. Consequently they have a latitude of action denied to men that has carried through up to today. Yes, they were denied a lot of rights, but as they have gained those rights they also gained more freedom in their actions--dress, manner, speech, and sexual behavior. Another reason that women are more accepting of lesbians than men are of gay guys is that as a traditionally oppressed minority they have a bond of fellowship that men do not. Women work together better because of biological characteristics, temperment, and because they are bound together by a common oppressor: men. Men compete, women cooperate. Think about it, gentlemen, why do women all go to the bathroom together? It's the only place where they are safe from the inteference of men and they can talk safely. Anyone interested in what science has discovered about how the female brain works should get a copy of THE FEMALE BRAIN by Dr. Louann Brizendine.

The fact that so many men find lesbian sex erotic also eases the female homosexual's life in this culture. Women are not as afraid of lesbians because lesbians are no real threat when compared to men. Men don't realize how courageous women are, they live in a world of people (men) who are larger, stronger, and highly motivated to have sex with them. Men as a group are fairly predatory so it's no wonder that straight women would find a gay bar very relaxing. And any straight man who was willing (and able) to spend an evening in a gay bar would be more attractive to straight women because it would be a sign of his ability to put aside the usual macho stupidity that men usually exhibit in the presence of gay men.

These are just my opinions and not intended to offend anyone very much.

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Thanks for your post, MareTranquility.

Great post, and thanks for your input. All very valid points, and I wonder why I didnt think of these myself!

Well said, and I agree.

Agree. Meaning better chances for the man, maybe at a later date if not at that particular time.

I also think that some of those men who act macho (or homophobic) around gays are usually those who are either in the closet themselves, or have latent homosexual tendencies and are scared by it - hence the bravado ... and the overt machismo to cover it up.

They didnt offend me. I was most curious to see what others think of this issue!

Maybe cause the Bible says that it's an abomination for a Man to lie down with a man.... not a woman with a woman?

Kidding.

I think it's because we still live in a male dominated society, and men think lesbians are Teh Hawwwt!!!

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Actually, your first statement is not as silly as some might think. Did you know that before the laws were repealed in Britain which made homosexuality a crime, it was perfectly legal for two women to have sex? The reason for this is that when the laws were enacted by Queen Victoria in the late 19th century, she believed that it would be impossible for two women to have sex, hence the British laws only ever covered males.

Didn't the Queen know that there were.....err, wooden toys...

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