Should corporal punishment be allowed in schools?

I'm strongly against corporal punishment, primarily because of the following reasons: -

1. It's humilating to the kids, and can cause mental issues if handled the wrong way (which it often is).

2. Has the potential to cause lasting physcial harm to kids.

3. It doesn't do much good - kids won't be deterred by mere physical punishment - they will merely find ways around it.

4. It tells some children that violence is perfectly acceptable way of solving problems.

Further, 22 states in the US still allow corporal punishment in schools. Why is this so? Should a developed nation like the US allow corporal punishment?

Of course, as I'm sure all know, virtually all non-First World nations allow it ...

Your thoughts, opinions ... ?

Au contraire! There was a time when corporal punishment was standard in schools and it worked. What made it even better then was that after the teacher paddled you, she notified your parents so you got it again when dad got home from work. You didn't have kids killing kids in school, kids on drugs, half the girls in the senior class pregnant and all the other things we've seen in our "progressive" society.
I was spanked as a kid and it deterred me from doing the deed again so I raised my kids the same way. They healthy, well-adjusted adults now and following the same rules to raise their children. I know many kids that come from homes where "time out" is the punishment and those kids tend to be B-A-D!!!!! A paddle to the butt would solve a lot.
As for teaching that violence is okay, that's a copout. Even growing up, I knew that a paddling was punishment administered by an adult and that it didn't give me permission to punch the kid down the street. If a kid is the violent type, he'll be violent whether his parents spank him or not and BTW, one of the most violent kids I know has NEVER been spanked by his parents.

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How is it handled the wrong way in schools? Let me break it down for you, in schools, it can never be done out of anger, and there has to be a witness. At home there is a very plain line I think between punishment and abuse

Only if it is abusive. I'll give you an example, when I was a kid, my dad has more than once worn a hickory switch out on me. Nothing harmful about it, it did no physical damage what so ever.

Only if it's not done right.

How? There's nothing violent about it.

Yes, we should, because if done right, it works.

So.

It's effective.

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Mrs. M, first off, thanks for your perspective on this.

Here, your argument is divided into two sections. You say it works, and then you cited your own personal example. I'll try and work along those same lines myself ...

I am not so sure about how effective corporal punishment is overall. IMO, physically punishing someone doesnt stop them from doing what they want to do - they'll just find another way. I'll get into this a bit later.

Onr major problem with corporal punishment is what type of corporal punishment is adminstered/allowed to be administered. Where I went to school, paddling was hardly ever done, instead, there were far more stricter punishments in place. Being made to stand in unnatural and static positions for long periods was one, and slapping across the head/face was routine. In fact, there have been cases of people (in many third world nations) getting SERIOUSLY hurt as a result. There was a case in India where a student in a "government" (India's version of "public") school lost use of his right eye due to the teacher hurling a wooden object at him and it hitting him square in the eye.

Are there any laws in the US which strictly detail what kind of physcial punishment is allowed, and what's not? Just curious.

Further, corporal punishment can be humiliating for the student being punished. An example would be the school I went to - students were made to kneel down (in strange positions - I can't describe it here). Somehow I find the idea of a 11 year old being forced to stand in an unnatural position while being slapped around kind of humiliating, and absolutely not a punishment warranted for an offense such as not doing homework, etc etc ...

Last, what exact situations warrant corporal punishment? Does the US have laws on this? I am not sure, but many countries around the world don't.

Back to whether it's effective - we used to be physically punished regularly in school for a variety of reasons, ranging from talking in class to not doing homework, to cutting class/school altogther - just about anything. The punishments used to be quite severe (at least by Western standards) sometimes. Did it stop anyone though? No, we just did our best to find our way around the system, and managed ...

I'm sure I could find stats and sites for all this too, but I'm going by what I've seen, and experienced for starters .. .

Hmm, I don't know - what gives an adult the right to cause a kid physical pain for something like not doing HW, for example ... ? Why then, would it not be OK (in a kid's mind) to punch the neighbor down the road for refusing to help him with Math when he needed it (just an example)? Of course, all kids think differently, but just a question ...

I'm also not sure of kids "being the violent type". I believe a lot of it has to do with social upbringing, family behavior, and of course the peer group the kid hangs out with ...

Anyway, thanks for your perspective again. BTW, another important thing to note is I'm referring to corporal punishment in SCHOOLS, NOT at home ...

I'm not sure if your referring to American schools purely ... I should have phrased my question better and said I'm not simply talking about US schools (in the first part of the question).

Anyway, see my reply to Mrs M. As for the house part of it, I'm not arguing that either way for now.

First, thats a different deal in that your dad (who presumably cared about you to know what level of punishment to adminster) did it - I'm referring to schools. Further, there is no guarantee that just because it did not do physical damage to you means others won't be hurt.


Care to elaborate a bit on this? What's the "right" way?

Why do you believe it's not violent??

Can you prove it?

Can you prove it?

Note: One reason I didnt want to limit it to the US alone is because I wanted to see what people thought of this issue overall, not just w/respect to the US ...

We have quite a few members on here from other parts of the world, and it should be interesting to hear everyone's perspective on it ...

A simple litmus test:

If a you want to hit my kid when she screws up, will you let me hit yours when he screws up?

Doubtful.

If anybody's going to hit my kid, it's me.

Not a fan of corporal punishment...

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I've only got a few minutes so I'll have to keep this brief.
The situation you described in India would land a teacher in jail and cost the school board millions of dollars if it happened in the US. Justifiably so! We generally think of corporal punishment in the US as a paddling but it sounds as though the kneeling punishment you described is also corporal.
When I was in elementary school, we were often made to stand in the corner for about ten minutes and while it was embarrassing, it did no harm. If a kid was made to kneel in awkward positions, then I'm sure that the parents would have reason to complain. (I know kids that had to kneel on rice at home! )
Gotta run to work but I'll try and address the rest of your post this evening.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Yes, which is why I was saying I didnt want to limit this to the US alone - it would be interesting to hear what others think of this as a "global" issue, not just in the US. Plus its not just India - many third world nations are even worse.

I've always thought of corporal punishment as physical punishment and not just limited to paddling. The kneeling was applicable since it was kneeling in a strange position, and slaps to the face etc were involved.
Yes, standing in the corner isn't really corporal punishment, at least not serious corporal punishment at any rate!
OK - look forward to it.

No problem - happy bartending .

Yes
Im strongly in favor of it. Big surprise - we're on opposite sides.
It is SUPPOSED to be humiliating. Thats the point. The idea that it COULD cause mental issues IF handle the wrong way is a lame argument. History shows us that it DOESNT cause issues and typically IS handled the right way.

Corporal punishment was the norm until quite recently.
So does getting out of bed in the morning. Life isnt safe, get used to it.
Again, history demonstrates the opposite. Children were far better behaved in schools when corporal punishment was part of the discipline regimen.
Thing is, violence IS a perfectly acceptable way of solving some problems.

Do you not realize that ALL law is backed by violence?
22 huh? Didnt realize it was that many - good.

It is so because the parents in those states realize it is a valid form of discipline.

ANY nation should be allowed to allow ANY law it damn well sees fit.
So what? Virtually all nations (first or otherwise) do NOT allow gay marriage, and yet somehow that isnt a valid argument against it. So why should the "everyone else does (or doesnt) do it" be a valid argument in this case?

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Yes, big surprise indeed.

So you'd want to humiliate kids as a means of punishing them? I don't think that's very productive, destroying the kid's self esteem that way. What possible good could it do, and why are other methods such as non-violent punishment not better? Why not instead look at this another way and REWARD them for better behavior?
And humilation certainly does have the potential to cause mental problems ... Anxiety disorder and excessive worrying (I'm not sure what the exact term is for this) are just two.

This isn't about freak incidents one can do nothing about - corporal punishment is something that can be stopped.

Hmmm ... Not in my experience.

Not when it comes to kids in school though.

That isn't the point.

Yes, about 22 or 23.

Well, I never debated THAT point.
I'm not saying it should be a valid argument either for or against. I was simply stating a fact. If I was making an argument based on that, I'd have said it.

You dont have kids do you? You must not, because that is the typical outlook of someone who doesnt. Frankly I used to have it.

Humiliation is a form of punishment - and with kids, a damn good one.

Worrying about a kid's self esteem sounds good, but it really isnt all that productive. A person learns self esteem by being given reasons to believe in himself - and that means he has to fail as well as succeed. All this recent hoopla about bolstering a child's self esteem has gained us a generation of highly self-confident people who have no reason to be. Its also pure crap. After all, countless generations of human beings have come before us who were on the receiving end of corporal punishment, and the vast majority of them turned out just fine.

You reward good behavior and yes, that is a very effective method of encouraging it. On the other hand, when bad behavior presents itself, children must be taught that it has consequences as well. Rewarding the good without punishing the bad is just as damaging as punishing the bad without rewarding the good.
But why should it be? As i have pointed out, its worked for countless previous generations - what is gained by doing away with it?
Really? And your experience consists of what.....25 years on the planet with no children? Thats a guess mind you....

My experience - and historical fact - says otherwise.
I disagree. As kids, we all learn - for example - that the best way to deal with the bully is to stand up to him. We also learn that when someone hits you, the way to deal with it is to walk away if you can, stand your ground if you cant.

Violence is not inherrently bad. At least not in my experience.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. Corporal punishment is an example to children that yes, there is a point at which you are going to feel some very real pain for your behavior. Better they learn it from a swat to the behind than in much more painful and damaging ways later in life.

Paddling a kid on the backside wont harm a thing. Your butt is made up of nothing but muscle and fat and sits atop one of the largest, strongest, most dense bones in the human body. There are no organs or major blood vessels. Quite simply, the worst that can happen is a short term difficulty in sitting comfortably.