Well the middle people have a different concern. They know that if they go either way on this issue the church might split because Schaefers faction is loud and militant. These people value the unity of the church over the taking a stand on this issue. Its not indifference, these people in the middle ground hate the intolerance as much as anyone. The example I'm thinking of is how the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the national Lutheran Church) passed a resolution a couple years ago that said they were going to leave situations like this with transgendered (and homosexuals) people up to the individual congregations. These people understand there is a problem, but they feel that the unity of the "body of Christ" is the best way for them to deal with this problem.

Now as a Christian I am incredibly sorry that you have been uninvited to the churches in your town. There is no other word for it other than its wrong.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

Thank you for the explanation, I can understand the desire to retain group cohesion even if I, personally, think the price is too high.

I used the word "indifference" because in my experience most people think that they don't know any transgendered people and so the issue doesn't affect them. Our cultural pattern has been to deny the existence of people such as myself--rather like people used to do with mentally ill or challenged family members--and to restrict the dissemination of information about transsexualism in the hopes that it will disappear. This attitude seems to be very similar to the idea that if children never learn about homosexuality, then they won't become homosexuals, an idea that even a cursory examination of history will show to be nonsense. Peggy Shaefer made the classic statement that "we don't believe in transsexuals," which is tantamount to saying we don't believe in color blindness or being left-handed.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

True. but this has not always been the case. In the past women who crossed this boundary would have been regarded in much the same way as an 'uppity nigger' in the not too distant Southern US, or as someone trying to 'rise above their station' in a more class oriented society.

The punishment could range from mild disapproval to death. For women a likely punishment would certainly have been rape/sexual violation.

Yes, you are correct, but nowadays it's different. Now it's the person wishing to be a female who is often raped and beaten or killed. I have heard it expressed this way by "real" men, "You want to be a woman? I'll SHOW what it's like to be woman!" after which violence is usually committed.

It seems that many men are threatened in some obscure fashion by a member of the "ruling" class who wishes to give up their privilege and live life on terms that they choose for themselves.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

yes - I think this has pretty much always been the case - challenging the 'natural order' - of who dominates who - has been a 'sin' or crime for millenia.

I could be wrong, but it seems that the man who took the 'female' role in the homosexual act was often metered out more horrendous punishment than the man who retained a more masculine role.

by 'lowering' oneself, one makes oneself a legitimate target for the most vile punishments that would be metered out to both sexes. On the other hand, by becoming uppity one is also guaranteed punishments that will remind one of one's 'true' station or worth.

In a truly equal society, where the genders tuly are regarded as equal, hmosexuality, or trans gender issues, are probably not likely to cause the batting of an eyelid.

Its my personal opinion that fundamentalist religion needs to keep people in boxes - even though the rhetoric may include 'equal but different,' or lines about valuing the role of women as mothers (as occurs both in Islam and Christianity - and can be used to prevent women from having control over their own bodies).

Sigh. This is also why those outside the chosen can be targetted, discredited etc. They don't fit into the right box.

edit: I guess this demonstrates to me that transexualism is not a moral issue, but one that is created by the labelling process.

In saying this in no way do I mean to deny that trans individuals occur, of course its a natural phenomenon, but the need to label people as either/or creates a world that is extremely difficult for trans people to negotiate, and which causes a great deal of unnecessary pain and suffering.

Being able to be who we are is important for all of us. Who we are as people should not depend on gender, sexuality or any other characteristic we are born with. Nor should we be denied the right to develop to our full potential as human beings because of our genetic makeup.

Excellent post, and yes, you are correct that the man taking the "female" role in homosexual sex was often treated far more harshly than the other. In fact in some cultures it wasn't considered "homosexual" at all to receive oral sex from another man, only the man giving the oral sex was considered "homosexual" and therefore to be punished.

The title of the thread referred to transsexualism not being a moral issue because it isn't an "evil lifestyle choice" in that people are born this way and struggle with the consequences all their lives. The religious abuse simply adds another layer of suffering in their lives--and for what?

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

That’s not the full case or story on the phenomena.
People tend to run with one or two publishing’s from 60’s activist professors as having all knowing wisdom and insight that mankind somehow missed for millennia until Viet Nam. Top that with a loaded article that somehow knows the religion of someone commenting on the story and you have not a news story, but a mindset on how the author wants you to see the story.

Pre 1960’s it was a sexual fetish that today has become a “living fantasy cohere” reinforced by normalization movements.
The fine people of Florida do not know it’s normal like you guys do. Please don’t condemn us for our ignorance. 99.9% of the world doesn’t know what you guys do… A pigmy would be thrown out of the elders guild if he showed up in a dress for goodness sakes.
You people are silly…

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Only a liberal would know how hard it is to get a nicotine patch to stick to a monkey.

Well, Hank, I'm guessing that you didn't read the article, please see quote below:
Peggy Schaefer was one of about 60 members of the First Baptist Church of Indian Rocks who turned out for the meeting.
"I don't want that man in office," she said. "I don't think we should be paying him $150,000 a year when he's not been truthful. We have to speak up. Of course, we don't believe in sex changes or lesbianism.

It's difficult to know how to respond to your post since it's so scattered and full of unsupported statements:
"People tend to run with one or two publishing’s from 60’s activist professors as having all knowing wisdom and insight that mankind somehow missed for millennia until Viet Nam." What?

"Pre 1960’s it was a sexual fetish that today has become a “living fantasy cohere” reinforced by normalization movements." A completely unsupported statement that is entirely at odds with all the scientific and historical evidence.

"The fine people of Florida do not know it’s normal like you guys do. Please don’t condemn us for our ignorance. 99.9% of the world doesn’t know what you guys do…" No one is condemning you, all the condemnation is coming from you folks towards us. You didn't get fired from your job. This thread is about educating people like you who admit that you don't know anything about this subject. This thread is asking how we get the information out to the great mass of people in this country who are just as uninformed as you.

"A pigmy would be thrown out of the elders guild if he showed up in a dress for goodness sakes." Actually, a pygmy would not be hasseled for crossdressing or crossliving, all of the indigenous cultures for which I have seen documentation accepted transgendered people and often honored them for their ability to see both sides of the sexual divide. Historically trans-people have tended to be peace-makers, statesmen, shamans, and healers.

The fear and hatred directed towards transgendered people is fairly new and has been spread by the desert relgions coming out of the Middle East. Most indigenous peoples accepted and welcomed trans-people, South Pacific Islanders still do, even Elizabethan England accepted them and there were 4 recognized genders: males, females, mollies, and tommies. Whence comes the word "tomboy" that we use to describe some girls. There is a huge fund of historical information on the existence of transgendered people down through the ages, but it is only recently that science has begun to tease out the causes and mechanisms of how people are born somewhere in between male and female. As I noted earlier, the American Medical Association has been treating transgendered people successfully for more than 30 years.

I often despair of being able to reach people who write things like you have here. "You people are silly..." implies that anyone who disagrees with you is simply a fool--which of course includes thousands of scientists, doctors, researchers, therapists, and several million trans-people living in this country today. You have presented your position as being OBVIOUSLY unassailably right, but you've given absolutely nothing to support it while at the same time denying everything that other people have said and written. I don't know where to go from here with you.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Well said, Mare. What is truly disheartening about the "Hanks" of this world, is not that they are blindly ignorant, but that they not only choose to be blindly ignorant and then revel in showing their blind ignorance to the public. This guy has proven to me that he thinks that taking a stand as a caricature of clueless, bigotted "redneck" is somehow commendable. Damned if I even want to understand it anymore.

Yes, it can be frustrating, especially when one is on the receiving end of the discrimination like the person in Florida. My brothers are both "Hanks" and I've not found a way to deal with them either.

I think that people who take a stand as a caricature of clueless, bigoted "redneck" and somehow see it as commendable are actually acting out of fear. You are correct, it IS a caricature and one behind which they hide to cover the fact that they are afraid to learn. Learning can be a dangerous thing, it can put you in the position of having to reexamine your life and beliefs and--GOD FORBID!--maybe change who and what you are, pretty scary stuff for many people.

Change is scary. I've known since puberty that something was wrong with me but I didn't know what until I was in my middle 40's and managed to ferret out enough information to realize that I was a transsexual. Talk about scary! I was living in a small town up in the mountains where I had lived most of my life, a small town full of "Hanks," where I owned property and ran a business. As frightening as it was to transition there, it was also a fascinating study in human behavior too. People I had known for decades simply quit speaking to me, religious people condemned me, I was threatened, people I thought of as friends refused to have anything to do with me, and yet, a few people asked me about what I was doing, learned something about the science involved, and supported me as best they could. My Mother is a health professional who had never heard of trans-people, but after she read the scientific literature she supported me completely. My little brother, who is a fundamental Christian of some sort, hasn't spoken to me in 4 years and refuses to let any member of his family see or hear about me. It's fear, but I don't know how to ameliorate it. Nine months after transitioning my spouse and I moved away from my home town to a city where we are building a new life for ourselves.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

I have afriend, who is so manish in appearance that people are amazed to find out she is a woman. She goes hunting, climbs mountans, has a very husky voice, etc. To my knowlege she is not a lesbian, but she does personify (physically) every Bull dyke I have ever know.. ( and I have known several)
Is she Transgendered? I don't know, tho I suspect so. But the thing is, It doesn't matter. whether she is or not. she is still a friend of mine.

Sure...as long as you play 'invisible lesbian'. It can get pretty ugly, if someone finds or figures out that one is FTM, though. I'm afraid for my best friend to come here to visit- he's living in Seattle, which is pretty accepting, but in SW VA, I don't know....he's pre-op, so he dosen't always pass that well.
Of course, he's not afraid, not that he'll say, anyway.

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please click and help the eggs hatch!

"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

By "pre-op" I assume you mean top surgery? Has he been on testosterone for long? A lot of transmen get on testosterone for a time before top surgery because it helps shrink the breasts and reduces the complexity of the surgery.

Give you friend some time, after he's been on testosterone for a year or two his voice will have deepened, his beard will start to grow, and he'll be bulking up muscularly--no one will suspect. Testosterone is amazingly powerful.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

My implications were how and why she was identified as a “Baptist”, you know instead of a “banker” or “car salesman“…Okay, my bad. I thought you knew that transsexualism was a treatable mental illness until mid 70’s publishing’s by 60’s professors…Um hm. Yea, I’m certain it’s much different then the percentage of people who like boobies, feet, ect…Note to self. Be sure and use [sarcasm]TEXT[/sarcasm] code in future post in replies to MareTranquility…