Actually history was biased - there was no idea of any other sort of writing at the time. But it's the accoount of the church that she was burned for wearing pants - trial, condemnation and execution.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I agree. It's not a defect- it's something really cool. There are things that we can learn about gender in no other way, than by having people who experience both within one lifetime. There was a really good essay in Nature written by Ben Barres (a neuroscientist, and FTM) about how his colleagues perceptions of his work changed after his transition. It's fairly enlightening. I can't link to it, because you have to have a subscription, but if anyones interested, PM me your email and I can send it as a PDF.

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please click and help the eggs hatch!

"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

Mare, having read through the rest of the thread, I can see that this is something that been a source of pain for you...and, I suppose one could term anything a defect that requires medical intervention, but I feel like the insights you have (and that I've gotten from C, the FTM I mentioned earlier) are incredibly valuable. I can't help but feel like the 'defect' is really in our society. Unfortunately, many people who have alot to offer society suffer from depression and higher suicide rates- possibly because those with genius of one form or another are also set apart, and thus have a view form outside that provides a source of new insights.

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please click and help the eggs hatch!

"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

Who says porn is evil? That's a spinoff of the Puritanical that so infests America. Those damn Puritans did a heap of damage with their crazed attitudes towards sex. Porn has been around for thousands and thousands of years and guess what, it's not going away. Just like sex, it's here to stay.

Hank I feel for you if you grew up in a society such as you described. It sounds like the sort of place Stephen King would love. All scrubbed and washed on the surface and crawling with filth underneath.

I didn't grow up in Pleasantville (or Stepford) and I'm damn glad I didn't. I did, however, grow up in the 1950s, that era of repressiveness on the surface while underneath it was fun, fun, fun. I have no problem with adults bonking each other in whatever ways and in positions, numbers etc they find works for them. I have a huge problem with hypocrites who fuck like rabbits on drugs and then scream foaming-mouthed abuse at someone who gets a bit on the side or dares to have sex with someone (or more) of the same gender.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Many diseases and defects give us insights into ourselves and our cultural perspectives, but they are no less disease or defect. Yes, I have gained many things from my condition, however the price has been very, very high.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

If you think she wouldn't have been executed if she had put a skirt around her armor you are incredibly naive. The english wanted her dead because she was a threat, if it wasn't pants it would have been something else.

Sometimes, clothing, is just clothing, it can speak to simple necessity and does not need to speak to the persons deeper inner psyche. And thats quite frankly, what I find so absurd about this all. You see a woman who decided to wear armor, and to retain her ability to ride horses w/o an absolutely absurd method, after having freed her country and automatically it must be some deep psychological issue rather then, maybe, just maybe, being an issue of necessity and I think you're stretching for an example.

Occam's Razor would dictate that the simplest idea of two with equal proof would be the better answer. The idea that she wore pants because they're a hell of a lot more useful then a skirt, and wore armor because it keeps you from getting killed, is simpler then attempting to divine her inner psyche. The English found her guilty of heresy and you think that this is some big moralistic issue? The thought never crossed your mind that, oh, the English wanted to get rid of the enemy general who was crushing their armies?

here is a more biased account of the trial which isn't stretching to draw wild and fanciful conclusions

Joan of Arc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As far as the source goes, its well cited.

You puzzle me. I read a lot of your posts and I often agree with you, but you really seem to want to argue with me about stuff and I'm not interested. You research things and come up with ideas which you present to me in an argumentative fashion, such as the bolded/underlined sentence above, in which you admit that your source is "more biased". I note that your source does not provide a copy of the trial transcript. Hello? Why bother? Wikipedia is a popular source for information because it's new and interestingly written, but it's accuracy is suspect many times.

The bottom line for me is that I think you wish to argue, but I've got better things to do with my time. How about if I state publicly that you are always right? Would that do it? I bow before your massive intellect and your amazing ability to research, I accept that you know far more about each and every subject than I and in the future I will send all my posts to you for vetting before I share them with the public. Is it alright if I come to you when I have personal problems too?

You write like a young man with a turgid ego.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

I was talking with C last night about this, and as I suspected, he also doesn't see this (at least in his personal case) as a birth defect (though as I recall, Dr. Barres in his essay does present it that way). But, I think that his perspective may be different; not so much in terms of the cost- his family is fundamentalist Christian, and so there's been pretty poor support form them; only his mother really still talks to him. But, he talks about having had a pervasive sense of being 'other'. Not female, but not necessarily male, either- it's just that male is the best fit available in our binary society. (I hope I'm representing this right, I mistrust trying to speak for other poeple). I think that maybe in a different society, where one could be recognised as what one was, regardless of one's exterior shell, he wouldn't have to identify as one or the other. This in-between, or two-spirit state woudn't be a defect at all in a society that recognised shamans, and valued people who can cross between worlds. Being Pagan, it isn't a defect in the context of our religion (and it isn't, in terms of my own feeling towards him, but then I'm in love, so that is fairly bised ).
Which brings me to the whole concept of 'genetic defect', and how we define pathology. Pathology is contextual, and what is a defect in one context is not in another. In a related way, chondrodysplasia in most animals is considered a genetic defect, but in a basset hound it's the breed standard. On another note, being queer could also be considered a defect, but I wouldn't change even if I could. I think the world would be a poorer place without all of it's variety. We need our people who can cross between worlds, and interpret them to each other.

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please click and help the eggs hatch!

"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

You're putting to much importance on a single source. So they had the trial transcripts, and yet the Pope considered her trial a miscarriage of justice and would reverse the trial a few decades later.

To think that the biggest problem the English had was that she wore pants, and not that she laid waste to their armies is ridiculous.

Then go elsewhere, because on a debate forum, one thing seems to happen quite frequently...

We are looking at the word "defect" from two perspectives. I am using it as a biological reference, the system that produces viable males and females misfires in some degree and produces people like myself with a mix of male and female organs, a skewed hormone balance that messed up my development at puberty, and in the end left me as a non-viable person.

From the perspective of it being a "gift" that allows us to see the world from a different and valuable perspective I would agree that it has enormous value. Some autistic people have enormous intellectual capabilities, blind people have their own compensations, even people who survive cancer can come out of it with a unique and valuable viewpoint. I agree with you from that standpoint, but in even the most supportive cultural milieu many of us will still be physically crippled from a biological standpoint--that's all I was saying.

I have not brought homosexuality into this because it is an entirely different condition and I see nothing to make me think that it is a defect.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

You are right and I am wrong, it's the Will of God. I'm not interested in arguing with you now anymore than I was the last time you started this nonsense.

On a debate forum people "discuss" things that are important to them. As you demonstrated so clearly the last time, you are interested in arguing to no good end. Fortunately YOU are not representative of most of the people on this site.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

This is pretty much what I was thinking in my post above ....

I appreciate the difficulties, but they are for the most part the product of a society that defines people in the way it does, and doesn't allow for in between roles. Depression and suicide is always higher in groups who feel marginalised. If hormonal imbalances are present as well of course this increases the risk - so it figures that trans people - who are marginalised AND who have hormonal imbalances are more likely to be at risk. But that doesn't make them defective, or mutants. There is no logical reason for others to treat them as such. There is plenty of reason to offer appropriate support and treatment if the imbalances begin to affect their ability to function.

RE hormonal issues - it is a HUGE issue for many women.

My own experience of PND, in a social environment where this was not understood, and not understanding myself what was happening to me, may not have been that much different from what you experienced on many levels - albeit for only a shrt time (which was more than long enough).

The lack of support and understanding led to massive changes in my life. In the end relationships were destroyed because I couldn't forgive the callous way in which I was told to 'pull myself together' and 'get over it' when I couldn't - through no fault of my own. Especially once I realised that help was there - and could have been accessed easily if those around me had cared enough.

In the end, despite an extended period of intense emotional distress that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, I recovered. Some women's experience of this kind of hormonal imbalance results in them never becoming 'normal' again.

I am not suggesting that what you have experienced is less than what it is - simply that - no matter what our make up - there are people who go through major imbalances in their life, and usually - what makes these times worse than they need to be, and the factors that inhibit and even prevent recovery - are as much the product of the environment we live in as anything else.

My friend BTW had thick wiry hair growing from her face. In her teens she had an occasional coarse hair growing from her chin, as she grew older the hair increased. She pulled them out individually with tweezers to start, then began shaving when this began to be too painful and time consuming. Shaving her face was much worse for her than shaving her legs, or her armpits, she claimed. (and depilation is another issue as well - whether shaving, waxing or whatever - and women who have normal body hair are made to feel unattractive - which can for many affect self esteem - whether they conform to the proper depliation procedures or not).

After her first child was born the facial hair became even more abundant, and by her late twenties, she stopped removing them. In part - her decision to stop was part of a rejection of a society that, also didn't have a place for a young woman like her. She was depressed before her decision, and after her decision. She became more depressed when her children became ashamed of her - but felt that FOR THEM she would have to do something. Doing something because of others expectations of you is NEVER a cure for depression - but that is what many people are expected to do - and then told to 'get over it.'

You like, went to public school didn’t you?
Back when man first began exploring his world, that was biology 101. . Pigmy’s and shit still put into practice these healing attempts today (Disease was transmittable by proximity and primitive man could find no physical explanation.). Your reference is one of bigotry and hate. There was no God of David affiliation.
On the subject of pigmy’s and bushmen, they also would not allow tribal elders representing the integrity of there society to wear girl clothes…
Not exactly, but if it helps your bigotry and hate any, you can always spin and twist my owning a gas grill and the neighbors liking the smell into something.I’ll manage.
I only hope that you are being this way towards me because you are simply misguided and not part of the anti-Christian movement. You only need to let go of the hate that empowers the blindness.Um hm…