LARGO - City commissioners ended one of the most tumultuous weeks in Largo history Tuesday night by moving to fire City Manager Steve Stanton following his disclosure that he will have a sex-change operation.

Peggy Schaefer was one of about 60 members of the First Baptist Church of Indian Rocks who turned out for the meeting.

"I don't want that man in office," she said. "I don't think we should be paying him $150,000 a year when he's not been truthful. We have to speak up. Of course, we don't believe in sex changes or lesbianism. They have their rights, but we do, too."

Tampabay: Largo officials vote to dismiss Stanton

This is a pretty common occurance and it's sad, as well as pathetic. Here is a person who has done a good job and gotten merit raises who is being fired for the way he was born. Being transsexual is a birth defect in which the hormone signals during gestation are mixed or untimely and this produces a person who ends up being in between male and female. Everybody KNOWS this happens, who hasn't heard about a person born with both sets of sex organs? That is simply one of the most extreme examples of this condition. Science has been studying transsexuals for more than 100 years and the American Medical Association has been using the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care to successfully treat transsexuals for more than 30 years. Why in the world are Christians like the Peggy Shaefer, in the article above, still trying to make this a moral issue?

I have written on this subject a few times before and I know that there are a bunch of people on this site who refuse to, or are incapable of learning that transsexualism is about gender and not sexual orientation. My hope with this thread is that some of the thoughtful Christians, like Non Sequitor, will take part in this discussion because it only through the efforts of thoughtful, educated Christians that the rest of Christendom will eventually stop persecuting transsexuals for a birth defect over which they have no control.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Yeah, it stinks! I've known a few transgendered people and it is clearly biological! How has he not been truthful - and why do Baptists always feel the need to throw the first stone?

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Ok I'm going to say first that there are several different schools of thought on transgendered people and homosexuals. The first is people like Schaefer who find it sinful to be transgendered or homosexual because they believe the Bible clearly says it is wrong. Second there are people like me who do not believe Transgendered or homosexuals are sinning in any way. In the middle there are a lot of people who are in charge of the major denominations who feel this issue is in no way important and we should focus on more important issue

Now there is no clear majority in this issue, but my opinion is a little bit more of a minority than others. I argue that if we are going to hold something as sinful or morally wrong for all Christianity than we have to find a place where either Christ says its wrong directly or that he says something vague that Paul latter interprets as it being morally wrong. Since Christ does not say "transgendered people are sinning" or "homosexuality is a Hell worthy offense" then i don't believe its sinful. That does not mean i believe it is supposed to be that way, but i don't think that sin is involved. Also i believe the way people, like Shaefer, are treating Transgendered is sinful because its breaking the "love thy neighbor as they self" rule.

People like Shaefer are going argue that we don't need a passage from the Gospels because it already says its wrong in the Old Testament and in Pauls letters. My argument against that is the Old Testament also says that keeping slaves is ok, but we don't hold that and Paul says women shouldn't preach, yet my mother is a pastor.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

i am confused as to the difference between all the names like trans gender trans sexual.. i think its retarded that i should actually respect a guy who goes out in ladies clothing on weekends.. but its absolutly wrong to actually accuse somone with a birth defect as commiting some kind of sin. .thats horrible. how can one argue that if you were born being both male and female... that some how i dont get it.

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www.myspace.com/crusade7

Perhaps I can clear up some of it for you, Ted. The term "transgendered" is generally an umbrella term for all people with gender issues. A "transsexual" is a person who is, has, or wishes to transition from their "assigned-at-birth" gender to the other gender. Gender is a continuum, from completely male on one end to completely female on the other, and with every combination you can imagine spread out in the middle.

As to your comment about "respecting a man who goes out in ladies clothing on weekends," I guess it depends on why he's doing it. There are highly-paid female impersonators who do it for the money, historically men have played all the roles on stage--including the women's parts. Our culture has a double standard around this issue, women can crossdress and no one thinks a thing about it, but somehow it's evil or shameful if a man crossdresses. Partly this is due, I think, to the fact that women are 2nd class citizens in our male dominated culture and therefore it is a step down for a man to appear feminine. Some men crossdress because it makes them feel better in ways that are yet undefined, most of these men dress at home and never go out, most of them are happily married heterosexuals with no interest in homosexuality. Some homosexual men dress in "drag" to attract the segment of the male population that is attracted to feminine men.

None of the reasons in the previous paragraph apply to transgendered people. It's proper to note at this point that transgendered people have the same range of sexual orietations as the general population and about the same percentages of them are gay, straight, or lesbian as in the general population. This shouldn't be a surprise since being transgendered ISN'T about who one finds attractive--it's not about sex at all. It's about being born with a defect that makes one partly male and partly female. You think puberty was tough? Think about going through it with your body telling you one thing and your brain telling you something else!

Transgendered people have existed throughout human history--Joan of Arc was a female to male trans-person--and in many cultures they have held the position of shaman or healer since being trans-gendered allowed them to see the world in a very different way.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

reall joan of arc... you have a reference? i never knew this..

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www.myspace.com/crusade7

Thank you for your post, carefully considered as always. Another place where Schaefer's argument falls down is that there in nothing in the Bible at all about transgendered people.

I wish there was some way to address the "middle people" who feel that this isn't an important issue. Many white, middle class people didn't feel that the plight of the black people was very important either, but just like black people, there are millions of transgendered people who are struggling under the lash of legal discrimination in this country. Coupling Christian intolerance with Christian indifference reduces us to a forgotten minority, disenfrachised, beaten, raped, and killed with distressing regularity. ( Remembering Our Dead )

I am a transsexual and I have been UNINVITED by every church in the town where I live--every church that even bothered to respond to my letter of inquiry, that is.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Yes, I do, I have a book with the transcript of her trial and the charges the church brought against her that resulted in her being burned at the stake.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

I'm not really seeing gender as a continuum. Would you mind expanding on that?

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I've seen quite a lot of stuff over the years re gender being a continuum - and in some societies there is a 'third sex' - people who are between genders. I am sure Mare will have plenty of relevant material on this.

Of course, it doesn't fit in a patriarchal culture, like a Judeo-Roman - Christian culture ... or of course an Islamic culture.... its not big in any of the major religions (including Hinduism, and mainstream Buddhism - which are also associated with quite patriarchal cultures), although there is some flexibility in SEA - including, believe it or not - in SEA versions of Islam.

In patriarchal cultures which devalue the feminine, then being in between must logically be equivalent to being an abomination.

Imagine - a man who thought he was a woman? a man who wanted to be inferior?

or alternatively - a woman who tried to 'pretend' to be a man (eg - Joan of Arc, Pope Joan) ....

As I recall, I heard on NPR that Orthodox Judaism just came out with a statement accepting transgendered as a natural condition that is accepted and refered to in the bible. Since they wrote the Old testament - seems to me that Xtians should follow, or at least discuss.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Gender roles - attitudes, body language, attractions, etc

Women have greatly expanded theirs in my lifetime - when i was a kid a woman could be a teacher, secretary, or nurse. If they didn't quit work when they got married, it was assumed the husband was a lousy provider.

Some girls like trucks, some like ballet, some prefer to mountain climb - those were once clearly defined gender roles. A transgendered person honestly thinks of themselves as the opposite gender - subconciously at least. It's a matter of brain chemistry, fetal development, and brain development - as completely biological as digestion.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

No, I'm not talking about gender roles. I don't buy into the sexist stereotypes that so many people do, and most of those roles are cultural and have nothing to do with gender itself.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Males and females are quite different physically and, as we are belatedly discovering, also mentally. These differences are controlled by the genetic pattern of the fetus, when that pattern is defective or misfires it can mix genetic traits from males and females and a child can be born somewhere out in the middle between male and female. People can be anywhere on the scale from 100% male to 100% female, anywhere on a continuum between the two end points.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Actually, women who wish to be men are much more readily accepted than men who wish to be women. In our culture being socially upwardly mobile is respected and a woman wanting to be a man is understandable since men are superior and more God-like. But a man who wishes to give up male privilege and drop down to 2nd class citizenship casts doubt on the whole social power structure--this is also very clearly visible in the disproportionate hatred directed at gay men, but not at lesbians.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.