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Wouldn't those money be spent better elsewhere? Teenagers are gonna be teenager and no matter how idealistic they try to be, they can´t fight hormones. People are gonna have sex, whether we like it or not (and I fancy it quite alot, even though I can´t remember what it's like...), so wouldn´t it be about time to give up on all those idealistic concerns and instead try and teach the kids on how not to get pregnant and how to avoid STD´s? I seem to recall a survey that says that the US has the largest teen pregancy rating too, which further proves it´s not working.

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Complete madness. I blame the Puritans frankly. If America had been founded by well-balanced people instead of religious nutters none of this crap would be happening.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

I have to disagree. We are given only the conclusions that the conservatives made about the study, and no information abou the study. Who were the participants of the study? Are the representative of the population? What was the program they were exposed to? What other factors in their lives might have influenced their sexual behaviour? Ultimately, how do you know that the incidence of teenage pregnancy would not have been a lot worse if the program had not been there? I'm not necessarily saying that the program had any effect, I'm saying that we haven't been given enough information to make any worthwhile conclusions about the program.

Also, if you are correct that the US has the largest number of teen pregnancies, then surely the best thing to do is to attempt to come to an understanding of why this is the case, and develop a program to counter it?

Something like teens having lots of sex doesn't just happen. There must be serious social forces in place that result in it. So while I agree that the program might in and of iteself be misguided, I think something needs to be done.

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A society in which the the freedom to disagree does not exist is indeed on the downward spiral of oppression.

Call this a gut feeling but I reckon teenagers are going to bonk each other stupid, abstinence classes or not. That being so I'd sooner see them learn about contraception and safe sex practices than this bunch of old cobblers about abstinence.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

I agree with Diuretic on this, however I also remember as a teenager being pretty pissed off with a 'do as I say not as I do' attitude - and if our society shoves sex down people's throats all the time I think its a bit silly telling kids to keep their pants on when all around them they see a society where sex and sexuality is integral to selling everything, the key element of popular culture, and a significant part of material aimed at adult audiences.


A significant percentage of kids are going to see abstinence education as consistent as their Health Ed teacher showing them 'Supersize me' and then handing out Macca's coupons for rewards in class time.

I don't think this is in dispute. However, the people that support this sort of thing are not really interested in what works so much as spreading their religious views.

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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
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interesting - and valid - point IMO.

makes me wonder ... if the rest of us all said - fine ... have it your way ... what would they get in a flap about next?

Abstinence education is a strange subject. Abstinence is a decision. Its not something that warrants school teaching beyond its definition.
Its wasteful, IMO, to devote money to teach abstinence. People know what it is and what it means.

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Okay here's my simplistic take on this.

1. Teach children from an early age - age to be determined by people who are far more knowledgeable than me about child development (hence my reluctance to specify an age) about various aspects of sex education. Perhaps the start point would be when a child first asks, "where did I come from?" And keep teaching them - appopriately of course.

2. Teach chidren about contraception, about sexually communicable diseases and how to avoid them. Teach them that absinence is definitely an option and this should be communicated in terms that make it clear that consent is more than mere submission. Teach them about self-respect and respect for others but not in a sanctimonious way.

3. Let them manage their own sex lives - of course not interfering with how their parents want to approach this, difficult, but necessary.

4. Let 'em rip.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Bingo. And not just spreading but forcing. It's readily apparent to me that those who have sought and obtained this programme have been social activist members of the Religious Right.

Funny enough, IME, the most effective proven way of accomplishing their objectives is the opposite approach of what they are attempting. Common sense and common experience dictates that if you try to pressure people into doing things that they will rebel to do them in protest and defiance, and that if things are made into forbidden fruits that people will be tempted by them. These highly religious people wisely know that:



Amish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Amish teenager above was allowed to smoke that cigarette. The is part of their custom and rite of passage called 'rumschpringe'--or 'rumspringa' in short--meaning 'running wild.' Amish children are raised in the faith but when they turn 16, they are released from their obligations to live "English" (they are of German background), meaning the way of the modern world. They will remain in this status until they either choose to join the church or it becomes apparent that they will not choose to join it (most have joined by 21, so after that it is pretty much accepted that the person will not join).

The Amish see this as an important rite of passage and a vaccine against threats to their religion and society by the temptations of the outside world. They are free, and even encouraged, to literally 'get it all out of their system,' including but not limited to hard core partying, booze, cigarettes, cannabis, sex . . . whatever. But, meanwhile they do remind them that the door is always open to join the church if they liked what they had, so the two lifestyles compete by comparison.

The Amish do not believe in infant baptism and instead believe that joining the church in baptism must be an intelligent and wilful choice. But, once they join, members are expected to remain in the church and abide by its ways for the rest of their lives. If they leave, they will be shunned by the Amish community (this practice is called 'meidung'). The Amish do not see shunning as a hateful act, but an act of 'tough love' to constantly remind those who quit that they are breaking their oath to God and the community as well as a hard but necessary tool to ensure that indecisive, non-committal flip-flopping will not destroy the existence of the religion and community. If a member does not decide to join after experiencing rumspringa, they will not be shunned but simply be treated as 'English' for all intents and purposes. Thus, rumspringa also serves the purpose of 'weeding out' those who aren't 'Amish material,' so to speak.

Rumspringa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I highly recommend the movie "Devil's Playground," which is an excellent film documentary of a group of Indiana Amish teenagers during their rumspringa period.

NPR : Amish Teens Tested in Devil's Playground

There is now even a TV 'reality' show called 'Amish in the City.' It similarly follows the life of Amish youth in their rumspringa. I have never watched the show to make any comments on it.

Amish in the City TV Show - Amish in the City Television Show - TV.com

The rate for Amish youths who go through rumspringa that eventually get baptised into the Amish community is approximately 90 percent.

The puritans had no beef with sex, as long as it was within marriage. Sexual satisfaction was considered a religious obligation of marriage. It was Queen Victoria who started this madness - she used to have pantallettes put on furniture legs.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I agree with everything, with one reservation - number 3. Make sure there is no coersion or pressure - particularly for girls. Be there for broken hearts - and warch for date rape. It ain't easy being the parent of a teen girl in today's culture.

Rather than socialize them into the meatlocker dominant culture - number 2 is a must!!!

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Good point about raising girls Josepha, definitely a good point, thanks for adding to it, it really hadn't occurred to me but it makes perfect sense.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

That's what how i'd have it. On the 'early age' question - we always operate on 'old enough to ask the question - old enough for the straight answers'.

Your point 2. is all about learning risk management. They need this sort of training in all areas of life (driving a car, starting a new job, travelling, moving out of home, sports etc. etc.) A lot more is going to go wrong in their lives than sex.

The respect part is paramount. Attached to that is an appreciation of being responsible for their actions. Once again - a thing that needs to be learned at a more general level than just sex.

With sound knowledge the risks of sex are minimal.

Good points Wildman, yes, "risk management" is the phrase I must have been looking for but couldn't quite find. And yes, you're right, it's about guidance into an independent early adulthood and giving them the best chance to make it the rest of the way without an overload of self-induced trauma.

Why am I now thinking about good parenting rather than the issue of teaching sexual abstinence? But I love how sometimes a thread can meander in the most creative and informative ways. I learn from that.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh