And this is exactly what I mean. Whenever I try to talk about white privilege, someone always insists that I'm trying to make people out to be victims, or I'm making white males out to be evil racists. That's not what I'm saying at all. You don't get it, Tim. And that is the fundamental problem with white privilege. It's invisible and many people refuse to acknowledge that it even exists.

That is an illustration of what I just wrote. Anyone who dares to question or to disagree with the secular orthodoxy of political correctness is automatically in denial. So there is no point in discussing it.

The attitude is "guilty until proven innocent". With the exception of Porras, the posts here are all in agreement: how true it all is that all white straight men are the evil "oppressors" but they just won't admit it. The posture of victim is very powerful - so is self-pity.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

WOW ... Why kind of women are they ?

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Really? I haven't got the impression that all posts are in agreement. I even said a couple of times that I don't feel at a disadvantage to men even if people tell me I am. I feel like I am equal and, with the exception of my ex, I've always felt as if I was treated as an equal. BTW, that's why he's the ex I guess I could have just as easily said I don't think any man has advantages over me simply because he is a man.


Do the following quotes sound like people who think the hetro white male is evil? I think these folks have a similar opinion as you.

and then WOI goes on to disagree with the author's ideas of "privileges".

__________________
New to the forum? Check out our Newbie's Guide!
Interested in supporting USPO? Click here!

Actually for me the pity goes the other way. Being a man has privileges, but it has a massive downside too because the cultural strictures placed on men are so narrow. Women seem to have common bond that men do not have, the camaraderie maybe nothing more than our reaction to being seen and treated as second class people, but whatever causes it, I like it. I have made many friends amongst the women I have met, women in my experience are far more cooperative, and there's less mean-spirited hazing on the job too. When I have a really bad day, I have friends to whom I can turn for a hug and/or a good cry, and often an offer of chocolate--never happened to me in the men's world. Men live in a very cold world, it would be almost unbearably lonely there were it not for women. I pity you, not myself. I paid dearly to get to where I am and I would die before going back. Ultimately I think that male privilege is based on physical strenght and aggresiveness over the eons--an enculturated version of Might is Right.

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

So white straight men are evil. Thank you for providing as clear and specific an illustration of my point as I could hope to find.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Tim, you're either willfully misinterpreting what the article, Mare and I have to say or you're not interested in making the effort to understand our point of view.

Either way, I have no more time for you. Toodles.

So there is one option: agree with you or hit the road? Interesting way to have a debate. On a forum like this, with a left-wing perspective like this, you will find plenty of people who will not only agree with you, but commiserate as well. But how will you deal with people who dare to question you?

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Say what you will about my debate skills or lack thereof. I'm not interested in debating this topic. I just thought it was an interesting thread and wanted to throw my two cents in. I didn't even mean to get this far caught up in it. In my experience, trying to get my POV across about this subject is a lose-lose situation. Everyone walks away ticked off.

Namaste,

If this was the only case then why do so many cultures operate the same way. You would think this would vary significantly across cultures. However, most cultures are male dominated even those who operate on a matrilineal matter give significant value to male traits.

So many of the things that are attributed to culture are actually evolutionary in origin as per the article I referenced previously. I think to insist that they are primarily culture makes it much more difficult to deal with and change. The process of changing a culture is much easier than changing the evolutionary foundation that they are based on. On an evolutionary scale the time we have devoted to changes in cultural beliefs are statistically insignificant.
The truth of the matter is that if there were not sound evolutionary reasons for the way things are then they, as mechanisms, wouldn't have survived as a significant factor in our development. This is where they remain today.

In Peace,
Eglaelin

__________________

The inconsequential and inane nature of some of these complaints trivializes actual complaints that are to be made


1. I can, if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

So what? I'm

2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area that I can afford and in which I would want to live.

Nope, I'm a student, so I live in the same "student ghetto" that everyone else does. My choice was university owned or landlord owned.

3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

In general neighbors tend to be neutral to everyone in my opinion

4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

Depends on where I'm shopping

5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

So? I can also see plenty of people from around the world widely represented. Its not a contest, nor do i care. Theres a simple reason for this, I'm not a racist, while the person who wrote this article clearly is.

6. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization", I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

Unless I'm learning about the City States along the Eastern Coast of Africa, Japanese History, Chinese History, the various Empires in Sub-Saharan Africa, the empire of Egypt, the Sassanids, The Byzantines, the Ummayad Caliphate, the Abbassids, the Seljuks and the Ottomans, Native American Cultures, the various and repeated conquests of India, the Civil Rights Movement, the independence movements in response to colonialism, and many others.

But hey maybe thats because I actually learned world history. It's not my fault that the author is simply ignorant and ignored the entire history book because "Whitey" was in it somewhere.

7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

Existence? I've never been given anything that testifies to the "existence" of a race barring some news articles about tribes discovered in archaeological digs.

8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

No on the account of it being considered inflammatory. Try getting a paper published on a substantive topic and face incredible frustration regardless of race.

9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods that fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can deal with my hair.

1.) Not very many people go to music shops anymore
2.) Most Music Stores have large selections of music

I'm listening at the moment to the toots and the maytals, elsewhere on my hard drive is music by an Argentinean rock band. I never had any trouble finding either one, and with a subscription to Rhapsody I can play anything from J-Pop (if i hated myself) to music hailing from Mali.

And like most people, barbers have on occasion screwed up my hair.

10. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

I have yet to see a form which demands me to label my race in order to purchase something or to procure a service.

11. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

Not even sure what this means.

12. I can swear, or dress in second-hand clothes or not answer letters without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

No, most people simply attribute it to poor upbringing.

13. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

Ah yes well the other day I was going to the local "powerful male group" which totally exists and isn't a useless vague term.

14. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

I have yet to hear people say that to anyone.

15. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

You know, I think Al Sharpton seeks that out personally. The chances of a random person walking down the street asked to speak for his race is pretty rare.

16. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color, who constitute the worlds' majority, without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

You know how many freaking languages that would be? Granted there are a few trade languages used for communication between tribes in Africa, such as Swahili, so that simplifies some of it, but then theres Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, Dari, Turkish, Pashtu, Punjabi, Sindhi, Hindi, Bengali, to name just a few. No one is familiar with that many languages and customs, with the possible exception of a few rarities in the diplomatic sphere.

17. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

Having worked on political campaigns, no one is viewed that way.

18. I can be sure that if I ask to talk to "the person in charge" I will be facing a person of my race.

No thats a crapshoot.

20. I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

And featuring people not of ones race.

21. I can go home from most meetings or organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.

Paranoia is a terrible thing, but has nothing to do with race.

22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.

Well yes, thats because its an AA employer.

23. I can choose public accommodations without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

When the hell was this written?

24. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help my race will not work against me.

With the exception of genetic disorders, it won't, with the possible exception of some southern jurors.

25. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.

This is the problem of the page. Its the response of a hypochondriac, but instead of thinking the headache is a tumor, the immediate assumption for downfalls is racism. Which will result in people treating the author like they treat any hypochondriac

26. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color that more or less matches my skin.

May usual bandages are a combination of whatever tape i have and sterile gauze, surprisingly duct tape does not match my skin, and it wasn't a worry of mine, since it still held the gauze on. Of course I'm prone to injuries which aren't covered by simple band-aids.

Well, Thematic - we do not often see eye-to-eye, but let me metaphorically salute you for this outstanding post. You managed to take apart the entire pretentious structure and demolish it with common sense, real examples and a strong dose of reality. It's like a refreshing slap of cold water after wading through the thick syrup of the original article.

And of course you are absolutely right regarding your opening comment: The inconsequential and inane nature of some of these complaints trivializes actual complaints that are to be made

That is the real danger. Nice work.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

That's a very fair disclosure.

And perhaps a reason why, as Peggy McIntosh asserted in the article, that most men do not seem concerned with male privilege.

Most men have experienced women using their feminine charms or perceived weaknesses to try and manipulate men to do things for them.

These days, most women have the same career opportunities as most men, yet many women still expect men to pay for everything. And many women take advantage of that. That is one female privilege.

Or for example, it is easy to assume that every Cop has experienced numerous incidents of the "crying female" who is being pulled over for a traffic violation just like everyone else.

In general, men are probably as sympathetic to women as women are sympathetic to men.

__________________
One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

What about men using their high stature, their voice and their body presence to win an argument ?

It's the same ...

We all use the weapons nature have given us. Fair enough.

You are mixing up two things.
- work
- courtship

Not the same rules apply. And for an obvious reason. However, it's up to you to change the rule ...

Besides, it is not true that women have the same career opportunities as men.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn