You're right, they have more.

When going through elementary to high school the programs are tailored for them, with the exception of high school level sciences/math, in which case they are neutral. However, because of this there are special programs, outside of school tailored specifically for women, which men are not allowed to attend so that they can advance in computers, math, and sciences even more. The boys? Well now that they can be suspended for playing cops and robbers, pretending sticks or their fingers are guns, or banned from playing tag the boys will probably spend most of their time kicked out of school for doing what all of us did as children.

Then when they apply to university they face beneficial fact that the percentage of undergrads is an impressive 60/40 ratio of girls to guys, then if thats not enough they receive special undergrad programs which are only open to women such as the Elizabeth Somers Program at George Washington University. Such a program for men, naturally, is sexist wrong and evil. Yet for women its "empowered". Meanwhile departments renowned for absolute hatred of men (see: Gender and Womens Studies) are completely acceptable in the campus politics. While statements like those made by the Vassar Dean of Students in 91 are seen as permissible by the media. But enough about universities, lets skip straight ahead to the workforce.

When you look at the statistics

Regional Economist -- Economic Background Article

And yet this is hardly the entire story

Are women earning more than men? - Forbes.com - MSNBC.com

It is not men's fault that a woman makes different decisions then them.

Greetings and Felicitations,

I have been thinking about your statement all day. I was talking to a feminst once about transgendered people because feminist tend to dislike transwomen. I asked her why and she replied:


I have run across this phenomena in various discussion groups that I have participated in. The average MTF is concerned with makeup and frilly dresses. What size dresses and shoes they can fit in. They make statements that go something like these: I just can't do math anymore, I can't seem to think clearly anymore, I cry all the time now and so on.

What I am trying to say is that women are under just as many strictures about the way they are supposed to act as men are. You have just decided to focus on what you consider to be the good in women and the bad in men. This seems to be just another version of stereotyping. I am not a woman. I cry when I need to and I cooperate. I take excellent care of my children and feel deeply about many things. This is not a male versus female thing but a mature person thing.

There is a movement among men to become something more than the limited vision of men that contemporary society has demanded -- The Mature Masculine.

Listening to my friends and my ex-wife talk tells me many things about women. I listen to the incessant gossiping and bickering. The constant competition for men's affection and attention. I hear about the sniping and backstabbing that women at work engage in against each other.

While I applaud your ability to express your desire to be female there are aspects that you will never get because you don't have the biology for it. Whether some people want to admit or not biology is a significant factor in behavior. You have never had to compete to attract and sustain a father for your children. Whether women want to admit it or not does not change the fact that they do compete for the attention of men.


Just my thoughts on your post.

In Peace,
Eglaelin

__________________

So it is fair.

And I can see why many women would want to keep two different rules for work and courtship as it benefits them. It's called taking the best of both worlds.

__________________
One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

Don't you ? Do you really want the same rules which apply at work to apply in love ???

Besides, it is statistically proven that men have the best of ... at least one world. Although I hold the opinion that it is easier for men as well in the "love world". This is a totally different topic and I am not sure I should elaborate.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

You are talking about "love", and I was talking about traditional relationships and gender roles.

Men may have it easier in relationships, but women do not make it easy for them. If you know what I mean. Of course I could say the opposite and that would be true to.

Maybe relationships, like work and life in general, is just hard. And maybe it easy for people to assume that everyone else is having an easier time at it.

I guess it depends on what people want and if they get it.

__________________
One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

Statistically Proven? I posted some statistics which would contradict your claim. As for the 'love world' I'm of the opinion that the expectations have grown significantly for men, and largely haven't moved for women. Heck most men are expected to be the virtuous Renascence men while women are largely allowed to do their own thing socially. Now I don't object to the fact that men have to be more diverse, I simply would like for it to balance out at the new and higher level.

I've decided to comment on the issue of women deferring to men. What I've seen mostly divides by age group. I'm a six foot, two hundred pound, twenty five year old man with a gentle, noncompetitive attitude. Women who aren't old enough to consider me 'young', say thirty and younger, tend to treat me as an authority figure. Women over thirty tend to treat me as they would their own adult children(for those old enough to have adult children), much the same way my own mother treats me(with less familiarity of course). Men on the other hand tend to treat me as direct competition or as some kind of subordinate(usually also based on age).

I suppose this is probably related to instinctual drives. A human societal mirror to the tendency in nature for females to submit to mates or care for offspring while men compete or subjugate one another.

Also, where the issue of men having an easier time in the romance world is concerned, I strongly disagree.

__________________
During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

Love starts with courtship.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Well, I don't know about the US - but in Europe women earn up to 20% less than men for exactly the same work. They are by far not as well represented in the top sphere of companies - and in politics as well. Very honestly, it is not obvious that the situation is very different in the US - in spite of a very agressive kind of feminism (IMO). The US has not managed up to now to have a woman President - and when I read some posts on this forum (from men and women - but there are less women here than men), I really wonder ...

My previous remark about an easier life for men in the love world was aimed at "casual sex", which is (most of the time and this has nothing to do with the evolution of mentalities) more casual for men than for women. However, I agree that it is only part of the story and, all in all, a hasty remark.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Your post makes me think of an on-going debate in Germany at the moment : it is that, in fact, men have a harder time than women in today's world - Girls are better achiever at school, boys have a higher rate of drop outs and jails are filled with men not women. All in all, whatever their social situation, women get along better, so the analysis, because they can cope with their emotions better, which help them to "compensate" if something goes wrong in the material world.

Basically, since the "outside world" has been open to women, they have catched up, and not necessarily to men's advantage.

The argurment is that we don't need "women programmes" but "men programmes" instead.

It makes you wonder whether the whole thing about women oppression was not worked out by men because somewhere, unconsciously, they knew that women were better than them .

Last but not least, I agree that women sometimes participate in the problems they then complain about. However, this is a discussion I would like to have with women not with men.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Similar claims have been made in the US, but they are largely false, since by and large the difference accounts for different kinds of jobs, or different amounts of work.

I don't know if the case is true in Europe.

I don't believe the fact that male children are being suspended for playing cops and robbers amounts to women "coping" better with their emotions. As far as the judicial system there are vastly different responses to the same crimes committed by men and women, and without fail women receive lighter sentences, for lesser crimes in plea bargains, despite the fact that they committed the same crime.

I'd rather not see either, at all, ever. People of both sexes need to learn to deal with the other sex.

Its mens right to be a part of the discussion, since the womens rights movement is setting about dismantling essential rights in the name of defending women, and attempting to see a dominance of women in every single field, and decrying sexism in any field which they aren't dominant, all the while shirking responsibilities such as registration for the draft.

Feminism in the first world, at least in Canada and the US, is really no longer about equality, but about a free ride.

1. As far as women making less than men because of the decisions they make, that is a contributing factor. I grew up during the equal rights revolution. Women were taught (assuming their parents enforced those teachings; mine did) that they could do anything they wanted to do, if it interested them. We were taught that we now have a choice.

Unfortunately, the professional choices did open up for women but the home choices were a lot slower - cultural differences between the expected male role at home vs. the expected female role at home still lag significantly behind what goes on the professional world. Thus, we are a generation of women who think we have to "do it all". We can't; no one can.

I made the choice to give up family and enjoy a professional career because I accepted the fact that I can't do it all. Yes, there are husbands who stay at home while the wife works, but this is not the most common of these two possibilities.

The newer generation of women has realized that they can't do it all and are making the choice either to be a homemaker or to be a professional. Not as many men make that choice nor are there as many men who have to make that choice. My point is that this is the choice that women usually must make yet few men need to make that choice.

2. With respect to men having it easy in the romance department, no, they don't. I was raised in a household of men (except for my mother and me). I have seen my brothers go through a lot of heartache in the dating department. It's equally hard on both sexes.

3. A big gripe I have with the attitudes toward women in the professional world is the fact that an assertive woman (or maybe even an aggressive woman) is still labeled a bitch. A man with the same attitude or approach is revered as a go-getter or some other label with no negative connotation.

As the only girl growing up with boys, I became very outspoken. With a bunch of boisterous Irish Catholic boys around me, I had to be if I wanted to be heard . That was OK in my home. My brothers are just as feminist as I am. But, in the professional world, I cannot be as natural in voicing my views because not all men view women the way I had become accustomed.

4. Women are still learning how to deal with each other in the professional world. Some will defer to men. Some will overcompensate in the outspoken department (not that I disagree with that, but it is still a delicate game women must play professionally). Some will let competitiveness (with respect to competitiveness with other women for men's attention) overlap into the professional world.

However, my experience with African American women in the professional world is different. My personal experience with African American women in the professional environment is that they are generally more supportive of other women. They often don't judge other women as bitches if they are assertive; in fact they expect other women to be assertive. And they have no tolerance for jealousy from other women in a professional environment.

5. With respect to White privilege, I think it depends on how well integrated your environment is. I live in a city where the majority is African American, so I don't see any White privilege at home. My job has me at a large agency with a diverse crowd. So, other than the differences I have outlined, I don't see much of it or hear much of it other than, "Thank goodness it has changed".

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I fail to see how you got this from my post. The words: "white" "straight" and "evil" did not even appear in my post. Where did you get all of that?

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Men in all cultures are larger and stronger than women, even matrilineal cultures.

Matrilineal cultures tend to be more balanced, of course they give significant value to male traits--male traits are valuable. It is almost exclusively Patriarchal cultures that denigrate female value to the point that female babies are left outside to die right after birth and women's work is assumed to have no monetary value--our country for instance places no financial value on motherhood and work of raising children--since Mothers are expected to work AND take care of raising the children.

Well, that's an interesting argument for the status quo, but I'm not sure it's accurate. You DO have a veri-form appendix, homosexual people DO still exist, people are still killing each other over tribal god images, etc. Just because we are still doing things is no reason to assume that it's evolution to blame.

According to genetic studies, the Genghis Khan was the most successful male in human history in spreading his genetic material around. I'm not at all convinced that his example is one to be emulated just because it is evolutionarilly successful. This line of reasoning would seem to deny the existence of anything but the physical self. Are we not a gestalt, and more than the sum of our parts?

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.