Oh yeah ... So it's OK for women to be badly paid nurses and for men to be highly paid doctors ...

Besides the difference I was mentioning is FOR EXACTLY THE SAME JOB.

Also, as soon as a job, is carried out by a woman, it loses its prestige (teacher for example) and salaries drop.

Yesterday evening I attended a very interesting podium discussion - the Chief Editor of the TAZ in Berlin (a national "alternative" - rather left) prestigious newspaper) was speaking : it is the only newspaper in the entire Bundesrepublik with a woman as Chief Editor.

How do you explain that ?

Reg. Men in jail, sorry, you can not explain a 90- 10% difference by lower fines for women, this is absurd.

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______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Sucre and Si modo, my experience tends to mirror what you have said for the most part.

also - there have been numerous studies that show boys take up more teacher time than girls do in mixed classes.

I tend to think there is a biological basis fr a lot of it - women tend to be more 'other' oriented, while males tend to be more 'self' oriented ... this is a product of our biology - although appears to be shifting - with young women also becoming more 'self' oriented.

Re black women - interesting Si modo - I have found a much more supportive, sisterly relationship between women from black and Arab cultures ...

one of the important questions of today is why are boys doing badly? I think that this is kind of interesting. Men don't cope with transitions as well as women do, and our world is changing rapidly.

women have always had to cope with change - its part of our biology and historically it has been the lot of women in most societies to move into their husband's family's household ....

women are often quicker at adapting - men on the other hand - and quite possibly because of their relatively privileged position - do not cope so well.

while the range of options for girls have expanded this has been matched with increasing uncertanty about what is expected of men ... (feminism has probably only played a minor part in this - although it may be given the lion's share of responsibility by disgruntled males).

Males have higher rates of criminal activity, alcohol and substance abuse ... this may be for the feason mentioned above as well as inherently male characteristics ....

I think males are still relatively privileged - anatomy is STILL destiny - as Si modo says - men don't have to make the choice that she had to make ... and I am well aware of how much my choice to be a parent closed doors that would have remained open had I been a male in the same situation.

I know things have changed now, however when I look at young mothers who try to combine the two roles, (ie those who return to work with minimal parental leave) and the high stress levels they experience, it really is quite a different experience from that of most young fathers.

I do think US feminism is different from most of what I have experienced however, and also based on this forum I find the 'politically correct' stuff is a bigger issue there than here.

Re white privilege:

Here this is still an issue for many people - although far less so than it has been in the past.

Media reports, and some attitudes I have seen here, suggest it is still an issue in the Northern hemisphere.

I tend to think also that western privilege is an issue.

This is largely a function of feminism though. American women of past generations were only expected to work if they were single or their husbands were incapable of supporting the family.

I did it for Halloween a couple years back. A couple of the guys at the VFW bought me drinks.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

Yes, I've noticed that women of Arab origin have the more supportive attitude, too.

Unfortunately, women are catching up in the criminal activity department .

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Greetings and Felicitations,

I wonder why that is?

I am not arguing that this a reason to keep doing things the same way. I am arguing that to ignore this very physical forces in deference to some completely cultural process is to make it impossible to change. Changing your genes entirely by mental effort is extremely difficult. A couple of thousand years of civilization versus several million years of evolution gives evolution the upper hand.

In order to effect change we must acknowledge the real reasons for the issue.

In Peace,
Eglaelin

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I don't know if feminists tend to dislike transwomen or not, I personally never heard a feminist express the sentiment you quote here. It did make me smile though because after being forced to live as men most of us are so deperate to end the charade that we DO tend to go overboard, bingeging on the thing we have so long been denied. But there's more to it than that, this culture is so violent and hateful to men who wish to be feminine that the transwomen who HAVE transitioned tell the one just WISHING to transition that they need to be prepared to lose everything: home, family, children, marriage, job... everything, and if they still feel like they have to do it, then, like me, they will. I was one of the lucky ones, I lost all but one of my friends, I had to move away from the place where I had lived and run my business for almost 40 years, I had to abandon my aging parents and move to a city hundreds of miles aways. I lost my two brothers, but not my parents, sister, or wife.

One of the things that makes transwomen inept at expressing their new gender presentation is that they have no training in HOW to be female in this culture. Women are "enculturated" all of their early lives on how to play the female role. Transwomen come to the job with a lifetime of MALE enculturation and habits that they have to break, a whole new way of living to learn, and most of them do it without any of the supports that they have had all through their lives: secure job, home, family, and especially a wife who knows about all that feminine stuff. Making a new life for yourself is always difficult, doing so while trying to change from male to female presentation with the apporbation, hostility, and often physical violence of the culture in which you live is incredibly difficult.

As far as the femist's comment, well, all I can say is that transwomen make up less than 1/10 of 1% of the female population so I suspect that the movement will survive.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Halloween and Mardi Gras don't count, do it for real and you'll find it's a whole new ball game.

I fail to see how our culture's partiarchal attitude towards women's work--though of long standing--is a function of feminism. Feminism is pretty new yet women are devalued in the Bible, considered chattel, and spoils of war.

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Greetings and Felicitations,

I would refer you to the following article

Michigan: transgender controversy
In Peace,
Eglaelin

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Just wondering where Chivarly fits in with this.

I open doors for women and they happily accept it yet I have almost never had a woman hold and open a door for me.

As a White Male I can say those privileges are only there when you are in a White Collar enviroment. Drop down to Blue and things are not so good. They actually are more equal.

Also with everything else aside - White Males, myself included tend to suffer from stress and stress related problems more than any other group. An underlying issue that is I think more subconcious on everyones part and most likely something that comes from our past is that White Males are expected to be in the fore front. Males in general are supposed to be the hunters and gatherers while the female is supposed to be the nuturer. These roles are not society based and will take more generations than we have been through to work out of our collective subconcious because they have had centuries to be ingrained into the psychy of the human race.

I for one would love to sit around at home and do the chores and take care of the children while my wife brings home the bacon. I have helped my brother with his children and had no problem doing the job. Yes I agree that a Mother at home taking care of the kids and the house is a JOB.

Just some random thoughts from me.

I believe that men and women are EQUAL and we can do anything the other can that is not limited through biological makeup. I have a friend she is very attractive and works as a garbage collector. I also have a friend who is a great auto mechanic and she gets paid better than all but one of the guys in the shop and he has been there all his life while she has only been there 10 years.

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Listener of the Wilkow Majority
Patriot, Conservative, Libertarian

Several studies have been conducted that shows women in middle management more often than not DO NOT have intentions of working towards the executive ranks within corporations.

In a recent study only 25% of female managers expressed an interest in working towards upper management/executive positions whereas over 60% of male managers expressed an interest in working towards upper management/executive positions.

It is unfair to state that women are at a disadvantage or not being represented in certain areas of the workforce if they are not making the choice to work towards it.

Should I criticize the nursing industry or social work industries for being anti-male because most nurses are female and most social workers are female? Of course not. The reason most nurses are female and most social workers are female is because it's mostly females choosing these career paths.

Same with airline pilots. Feminist groups complain that most airline pilots are men without even asking how many women are taking the time to train to become an airline pilots.

I completely disagree with these statements. I think the last few generations of men have done extremely well with the social changes the feminism has initiated.

Men have accepted women as bosses, managers, heads of companies, etc. The men of three generations ago would have a very hard time accepting a female boss. For the most part western males accept it and do not even think about it.

However, from working in marketing in online dating I can tell you that women cannot cope with adopting the mating, dating and courting rituals that men have always had to do.

Ask most men to accept a female manager and most will say it's not a problem as long as she is a good manager.

Ask most women to walk across a bar and initiate a conversation with a strange guy or to shell out some cash to pay to chat with a guy online and most women will still state, "It's the man's job".

Women are not coping as well as you think. Most women still lean on the crutches of "tradition" and "chivalry" in order to cling to the past social dating habits. They do not have an easy time doing what men have always done: be the aggressor, initiate contact with men, initiate conversations with strange men yet men do this all of the time - always have, always will - on top of dealing with the social changes brought on by feminism.

Lol....look at the spin job.

You are portraying the making of choices as some kind of burden. Did it ever occur to that not having the opportunity to make a choice in the first place may not be the ideal situation?

Let's see many women have two choices, career or stay at home. Sounds like a nice privilege to have two opportunities.

99.999% of Men still have the same NON-choice that their fathers did, go to work for 30 years. Yeah I know, you can come up with some random exceptions of stay at home Dads. But it is not common and most women are certainly not looking for a stay at home husband to support.

I think what we are seeing today, with many college educated women wanting to leave the workforce and be stay at home moms, is indicative that working is not so great after all. It's like they realize that work sucks, it is stressful, everyone is pushing and shoving and they would rather stay at home. Who wouldn't? The most privileged people I know are the stay at home wives whose husbands pay for everything. And I know plenty of them. And their lives do not suck at all. They are the ones, who have the opportunity to stop and simply enjoy the day on a weekday afternoon.

I wish I had that opportunity. There is an expression, "one day I hope to retire and be able to live the life that my wife and kids enjoy".

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One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

Being able to stay home with the children and everyone thinks it's great and no one thinks it's weird is a female advantage, however, not all females have this advantage due to whatever circumstances. There are some advantages that just are and then other advantages that you have to create and, IMO, this is where the difference would be. As a female, I have the opportunity to create such an advantage by the choices I make.

When I was working in the corporate world...OMG, that really sucked. I loved my job, but I really suck at playing office politics. With as much as I loved my job, I hated the two hour commute each way that kept me away from my kids and I missed my kids like crazy to the point of tears. I'm so lucky to be able to stay home with them now, although I don't have a husband to support me. Luckily, I have the best parents in the whole world and after the divorce I moved back home. My parents don't want me to go back to work. They like me being home and feel it's important for their grandkids. Of course, I can go back to school or get a part time job if I like; it's not like they keep me confined to the house. But I totally agree, having a choice is an amazing thing.

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I was specifically referring to the fact that women are now expected to work and raise children. I imagine that the view of women being a step above mere property of their husbands or fathers is a result of the fact that they didn't work for so long. Both sides of the equation have their strengths and weaknesses. Either the women lose or their children(if they have any) do.

__________________
During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

I'm aware of the controversy, but in all the things I've read and the people with I have spoken not one word was about MtF's being too fem. The biggest bugaboo was put forward by militant lesbians that MtF's were spies from the "men's camp" and thus should not be allowed into the Festival.

What point were you making with the article?

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.