Nurses at least in the US, if they're qualified are paid quite well, and they don't have as many debts/years of school so it balances out in comparison to doctors.
And the statistics I posted showed that for exactly the same job, with the same experience, same willingness to relocate, and no kids, women earn 17% more then men

Have any statistics for this? And if so, how is it proven that it is not simply due to an increase in supply?

Many chief editors have been in the business what, 30-50 years correct? Back then there was significant discrimination, and those top level positions are a lagging indicator.

Being male increases your chances of incarceration 165%. Which would mean if men were sentenced the same as women the disparity would be 34 to 10. And thats just the chances of being incarcerated, longer prison sentences would likely move the two even closer.

ifeminists.com > editorial > Males Get Longer Sentences than Females for Same Crime

Yes, that is true. I understand that life does not come as easy for some as it does for others. My only point was that privilege is not just about comparing man to woman, or black to white, or this person to that person. It's also about the individual and how they appreciate, and take advantage of what they have in life. There are so many factors. And I don't believe everyone wants the same things in life.

According to the Peggy McIntosh piece, Oprah Winfrey is an underprivileged person. And being a white male means living on easy street. It's not that simple.

Glad to hear that.

It is. Interestingly enough, a good friend of mine called me tonight, sitting on a golf course in Lakeway Hills near Austin, I think he had taken some pain killers at some point. He said: the best choice we can make is the one that makes us feel good because then we are at peace with the world.

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One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

Any ideas why?

I think there are a combination of things:

1. I mentioned above the increasing 'self orientation' of younger women - this I think is a cultural shift thats inevitable in the society we are living in. And I doubt its the first time its happened - I recall years ago reading Margaret Meads account of two Nu Guinea tribes (yes I know she was discredited - but in fact a lot of her observations were quite sound).

One tribe were more peaceful, both men and women were more nurturing, the other was more aggressive, and the 'norm' even among the women was a parenting style which could be regarded as neglectful.

I think there are elements of our society which share some of the traits of the latter, and I don't think girls get the 'modelling' of a more nurturing, other centred way of behaving.

I haven't thought this through much - but I think there are elements of that.

2. the breaking down of barriers has made it more likely that girls will participate in a range of criminal behaviour, including substance abuse, and the relaxation of standards expected of women have allowed more women to behave in ways that previously a smaller minority of women did. This includes extreme anti social behaviours. Increased freedom has also influenced this.

3. Feminism has done some great things as regards domestic murder - it is becoming less acceptable for a man to murder his female partner in a fit of jealous rage, while at the same time an abused wife who has suffered years of torment may be treated a little lighter by the courts now than in the not too distant past. However .... feminsim has also encouraged the police - and courts - to treat women more equally before the law - so that a woman who gets caught is not likely to be treated less harshly than a man (except perhaps if she kills her own children - I'm not sure on that - but it seems possible still)

I don't know of any feminists who have expressed a bias against transwomen. The article cited by Elgaelin seems to be a particular event, and I can't see any reason why this would necessarily be widespread.

It certainly hasn't been an attitude that would be common among feminists of my acquaintance. They may comment on the hypofemininity, and the lack of awareness of transwomen of some pretty basic stuff - but from what I know they tend to be encouraging and supportive.

I agree that stress is a major issue for men. And as wives look out for themselves more, they have less left over to offer men a nurturing supportive role.

However - if we learn to understand what is going on, we have a better chance of addressing any problems.

I daresay there are many women who feel the same - however even with hubby working - she may not have that luxury. As I posted on another thread - in the past the biggest employer int he US was an organisation that paid middle class wages, now its walmart, paying low wages. Two incomes are required for the average household, and whether women like it or not, they usually have to go to work even when they have relatively young children.

true

and there are countless cases of men working in trad female occupations who get considered for promotion before more experienced women

how is it spin? its what life is like.

perhaps you are unaware that many families require two incomes in this day and age. If you looked at figures int he US I have no doubt you would find it is the same as here- the dual income family has become the norm.

For MOST families (maybe your case is different) in the US - when a woman leaves employment the family experiences extreme financial stress. Often she has no more choice than you do.

still - supposing your wife WOULD support you - would you really be prepared to stay at home untilt he little darlings went to school - and then only go back part time?

how do you think this would impact on your career? its not a choice you even think about I'll bet - but WOULD YOU be prepared to go back after say 4 years break, and have to start close to the bottom again, earning maybe half (pro rata - ie about a quarter because of your reduced hours) what the guy who was your junior when you left earns?

I'd be curious how many men would be prepared to do that.

I'd be curious how many men REALLY would want to hand over their independence to that extent.

There is clear evidence from a variety of sources that men are not coping well.

The increase in marital breakups often affect men worse than women in terms of mental health - even when women make up the majority of single parents. (single women used to be the least happy of all - now they rate equally as happy as married men, and happier than married women).

Male suicide rates are high - especially in men in the 40+ age group - and they have been increasing.

In immigrant communities men often find the transition mre difficult than women due to the fact that often they go from a mre privileged position, to a less priviged position. This often creates problems.

It is true that many women will not be proactive in finding partners - however a lot rely on personal networks of family and friends. On line dating is only one way to meet people.

I can only refer to observation among those I know (including people of many ages), but most women have no problem initiating conversations with and getting to know people of the opposite sex, however often they do so out of general interest rather than to find a potential partner.

women have virtually always worked. In fact - it is still true that most work on this planet is performed by women.It has only been a relatively privileged group of women who have not had to 'work' and for much of that time the work they did in the home was considerable (before the days of supermarkets, convenience foods and labour saving devices).

It s not just feminism that has 'pushed' modern women back into the workforce - its become a necessity for most economic units (read: families) if they wish to purchase all the 'necessary' accoutrements of modern life.

have you done a realistic comparison of this? Nurses are still relatively poorly paid I would think (I recall Mrs M saying she earned more as a waitress, with tips ... than as a nurse).

Traditionally 'women's work' has paid less than men's. Social work and nursing only began to get decent wages when men started moving into those fields.

I don't believe that we can honestly say that we have yet achieved 'equal pay for work of equal value'.

I'm not real sure sure what to conclude from this study. On one hand, it could appear as if men were seeing women as more of an equal and even willing to accept a female having more power then they do. However, this is referring to relationships and may just prove that men can be on top when it comes to work and women can be on top when it comes to the home. My question is: Is this equality or reinforcing stereotypes?

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What I took exception with was your assertion that women in general cope better than men.

It's that blanket statement that I have issue with. Hence the reason why I highlighted how relatively well men have been coping with the social changes brought on by feminism.

Yet here we are only a few generations later and I can assure you that based upon global market research and focus groups from online dating's #2 company that the vast majority of women who use these services will not pay money to talk to men. The company wanted to try to figure out a way to get women to spend more money because it would be an easy way to increase revenue. When confronted with female behaviour in the focus groups and asked why they think women do not spend money to initiate conversation with men the most common replies were:

"It's the man's job to approach."

"It's the man's job to pay."

When asked if they felt this was an online dating rule only almost all answered no, it was a general social rule created by nature and there was nothing women could do to change nature.

I don't really think that defines "coping well with change". It seems women EXPECTED men to change their very ideas about women yet women are unwilling to change their ideas about gender roles within dating, mating, marriage, relationships, etc.

But I'm glad that you shone the spotlight on male suicide. Now tell me, how many books do women read called, "Understanding Men", or "Male Suicide in Our Societies." Not many. Are there even any books written on the subject of the struggles of men? Not that I have seen. Women generally read things about themselves, how to empower themselves, how to be happier with themselves, how to make themselves better, etc. Very rarely do they actually consider the male perspective and to learn about the hardships that men face in life. There appears to be an attitude that life for men is easy, a cake-walk and only women experience difficulties in life.

Also ask yourself, how many women's shelters exist? How many avenues for rescue do our governments, charities and private citizens finance for women? Many.

How many are there for men? Not many, if any at all.

When you hear the term "domestic abuse", what's the first image that comes to mind? For most it conjures up images of men abusing women. But the reality is that men experience almost as much domestic abuse from women as women do from men. Also, statistically speaking, women are more likely to kill their own children than men.

But there's not many women that cope well with being told these facts. They usually get very defensive and cling to the notion that women are the oppressed victims of society and men are the rulers.

You mentioned that foreign men have a hard time coping with change to North American society. That's just natural. It has nothing to do with being male.

How well do you think western women would cope in their societies? Do you think they would just fit right in immediately or would there be some resistance to accept new expectations of their roles in society?

Do male nurses earn more than female nurses? How many head nurses in hospitals are female compared to males?

Are male doctors paid more than female doctors?

The point being, the fact the nurses are underpaid has nothing to do with gender.

The Wage Gap Myth

A few articles BY WOMEN that discuss what they perceive is a wage gap myth and why:

Independent Women's Forum: Issues

Independent Women's Forum: Gender Wage Gap Is Feminist Fiction

Independent Women's Forum: Economics expert says gender wage gap not the result of male bias

Independent Women's Forum: A Bargain At 77 Cents To a Dollar

Here's a book from the dude who used to be the chairman of NOW. That's right. Feminists used to have a man running their organization. Process that any way you want.



Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap -- and What Women Can Do About It

Amazon.com: Reviews for Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap -- and What Women Can Do About It: Books: Warren Farrell

Exactly. They want the best of both worlds. It is only natural. I am just sick of the crying act about being underprivileged.

The truth is I don't mind "being the man" and paying for things, especially when it is my call or at my invitation. That is only right.

But I do know of plenty of relationships where the woman is very demanding, aka High Maintenance, and the man is basically just there to pull out his wallet and pay for it. And if he does not, that "sweet little woman" will turn into a pouty little baby