It is your opinion of what life is like. My opinion is based on experience that is different from the world that you portray.

I climbed off the corporate career ladder a long time ago. It's not the best life for me. Like Crystal said, Office politics can be a bitch.

I am an indepedent professional. Some years I make good money, some years I don't, depending on how much I work. I know a female colleague who works half the year and then spends the other half in the carribbean. Is she underprivileged? Life is what you make of it.

And I am not married, but if I found a women willing to support me while I stayed at home. I would be all over it.


Please, where do you get off making such presumptions?

Again this does not apply to me. Everybody is different. Life is about making choices and sometime sacrifices.

I don't understand why you equate having to climb the career ladder and play office politics with Independence.

That is not my idea of independence.

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One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

A few years ago Yale performed a study with female students asking them what their long-term life plans were.

70% of female students replied that being a stay-at-home mom was their long-term goal.

Yale then asked the question to themselves if they should reserve more spots for men since men appeared to be more dedicated to using their education for life rather than for short-term gain. Just the thought of opening more spots for men resulted in a massive backlash from feminist groups.

Many companies and organizations are finding that when they invest in women that these women eventually abandon their posts for life at home with their kids. These organizations then have to go out and find other people to fill these voids. That costs time and money.

Could you please provide a source for that Yale study?

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

The Yale Herald - September 30, 2005 - Career vs. parenthood: Yalies sound off

Many Women at Elite Colleges Set Career Path to Motherhood - New York Times

From the New York Times link:

According to a 2000 survey of Yale alumni from the classes of 1979, 1984, 1989 and 1994, conducted by the Yale Office of Institutional Research, more men from each of those classes than women said that work was their primary activity - a gap that was small among alumni in their 20's but widened as women moved into their prime child-rearing years. Among the alumni surveyed who had reached their 40's, only 56 percent of the women still worked, compared with 90 percent of the men.

A 2005 study of comparable Yale alumni classes found that the pattern had not changed. Among the alumni who had reached their early 40's, just over half said work was their primary activity, compared with 90 percent of the men. Among the women who had reached their late 40's, some said they had returned to work, but the percentage of women working was still far behind the percentage of men.

This may not be relevant depending on location. While my cousin was waiting tables at a particularly ritzy place in Boulder he never left a six hour shift with less than two hundred in tips.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

I used to have no problems with that. It didn't matter to me. Now, I do have issues with it.

I only can speak of my personal experience with respect to a woman making more than a man - certainly just anecdotal. My experience with a man who made less than I (and not that much less, at that) and who had less responsibilities than I, was not a good experience at all. Now, when we met, he was making more than I and had more responsibilities than I. But he was attracted to me because I was not a "dumb bimbo". (In retrospect, that says something) He was older, but I rapidly caught up and somewhat surpassed - big deal. He soon became petty in his jealousy - that's all I could correlate to his pettiness. He used underhanded means to undermine me. When I asked him to come to my professional Christmas parties, golf outings or picnics; he acted miserably and was a social turn-off with his snide remarks toward me in front of my colleagues. People were obviously offended because many just walked away. During the last funtion where he joined me, one of my male coworkers even said to him before they walked away, "I can't believe you just said that about your wife." He got in a huff because of what thet man said to him. I was so embarasssed for him. It did not reflect well on me in the sense that the perception by coworkers that that I would accept that treatment, that we left early - which was his goal, I imagine. For subsequent professional outings, I went stag. He wasn't pleased with that either, but it was the less of two evils for me. When asked where my spouse was at future outings, I lied and said he regretted that he could not be here but he had other business obligations. In reality, he was simply stewing at home.

On the other hand, the wife of one of my brothers acts in a similar manner. She makes less than he does and acts reprehensibly at his corporate parties. Because of her treatment of this brother, I don't much care for her. But none of my other brothers have that problem with their spouses. For the most part, they have no problem with the "status" of my other brothers and are pretty supportive.

Although I don't know which gender is more susceptible to pettiness toward their spouse's success, I only suspect that it is a bit more common with men being the insecure one. This is based on my experiences and those of some other women I know - certainly not scientific in any manner. What it may boil down to is the ability to find a spouse who is secure enough in themselves that they have no petty jealousies with respect to their spouse's success in any area.

If I may add, some of these insecurities are not just professionally oriented. I had been extremely active in equestrain sports since I was five. When I became an adult, I continued in that area. I currently owned a wonderful horse when I met him. I was thrilled when my husband said he wanted to do the sport with me. I found another wonderful horse for him and he spent two years learning enough such that he was able to go to his first competition with me. He did poorly - duh - it was his first time at it. He stopped participating soon after that. In addition, he put much pressure on me to discontinue a sport that had been a part of my life for so long. His pressures did not work, but he was miserable toward me when I had to travel to compete. I soon became bored with his attitude.

On the other hand, I find that playing golf is brutally boring. However, he was a fanatic. I'm not to good at it either, but as I got better at it with lessons, I still found it boring. But, it never bothered me that he was better at it. I didn't care about that and it would have been illogical for me to care. It was just one of the fundamental differences between us.

Unfortunately, some of these jealousies may not manifest until after the wedding.

Agreed. Not always. But I would add, that my experience is that, although not the norm, often men are less accepting of successful women than women of successful men. Again, I am not claiming that is scientific in the least. I am aware that there are men out there who have strength of character and are secure in themselves where thier spouse's success in anything is is not an issue. Unfortunately, I did not find one, but did lose that one . (As an aside, I was his second wife. He is now on his fourth.)

Just as women have to accept that they can't have it or do it all, men do too. Some may say that they are only interested in a smart and a successful woman and seek that type of woman out as a spouse. But, in the classic sense of being careful about what you want because you may get that, they need to be introspective and forward-looking enough to question if they can handle it if they get what they want.

Yes. It is simply a question of respect. When finding a spouse, respect may just be one of the most significant indicators of a succesful and long-term relationship.

Although women may be catching up in the area that a man making less money is no issue, historically, men not handling more successful wives has been more common.

Unfortunately, because of my unfortunate experience, I will be wary of any serious relationship with a man who is less successful than I whereas before, it did not bother me. Baggage? Perhaps. But, once burned, shame on him; twice burned, shame on me.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I see some of these as racial - but a lot more of them as class issues.

People who look poor are regarded as inferior to people who look rich. That black Dr's daughter is doing quite well, while a poor white male may suffer several of them. A poor white female is definitely gonna have even more problems - not a strength position in our culture! Poverty is the problem in a lot of cases - equal to race in most areas and often caused by the gender wage gap.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Thanks. I'll check them out later today when I have some time.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

This is a brief summarization of a conversation between my employer and I today.

Boss: Well, did you know that after (name redacted) leaves we will only have 3 women working here?

Me: That's true, I hadn't thought of it that way.

Boss: We need to hire some females and keep them working here.

Me: Ok. The people we have now are doing well though.

Boss: I know, but that's not the issue. If I don't get some women working here I could get sued. I can't have that kind of liability.

Me: ....(silence)...



This is the new reality of business. I work in a professional environment with people who have advanced degrees (greater than 4 years of college). Qualified, hard working people sometimes experience significant hardship in their lives because they are not the right sex, and they are not the right color. But, it's not always who you might think.

are all these social changes brought on by feminism? That aside - there is a lot of evidence that men don't cope as well - and a huge part of that is because they feel they should. they don't talk about problems etc etc. I don't have time to grab some data for you now - but there is plenty out there.



OK - but you need to look into that a little more. There may be a number of reasons why THIS SAMPLE might respond that way, or there might be a number of reasons that can explain this. For example - income disparities between males and females who access these services may be an issue - as might be te fact that the type of women who use this service are atypical - and are specifically looking for people outside their ususal social circle.

just some thoughts.



in the example you are giving it doesn't necessarily indicate that women are not coping at all - it may indicate that the women in the sample were taking advantage of the best of both worlds.

hmmm. interesting. there are quite a few books about understanding gender differences ... however - I guess its women who write books about women .... where are the men who write the books that should help women to understand men? since men take up a lot of many women's waking moments in thought and word at least - I am sure there is a market there.

The only book that I know that really approaches the issue you are describing was quite a heavy book by a feminist author. Interestingly, what I read in her book echoed many of the thoughts that I had had when dealing with perpetrators of domestic violence. Often THEY were vcitims too - and NOTHING was being done to address what was happening in their lives. All they were getting was blame (things have improved .... slightly).

again - the only reason these shelters exist is because women have lobbied for them. And they did so because there was a need. I have worked enough in this field to be well aware that even what exists now is well short of what is needed.


show me some cold hard stats on that


hardly surprising. how much time do men spend alone with young children (extended periods of time), what percentage of these cases occur when women are likely to be experiencing hormonal imbalances after childbirth?

proportionately to hours of caring, you would probably find LESS women kill their children than do men.

not at all - I think if you want to throw out these statements, you need to be able to look a little deeper at the variables that influence the information you are presenting.

actually - I never said North American society - but if its nothing to do with being male ... why is it that women seem to be more adaptable? why is it for example that girls from immigrant communities tend to do well in school, show less anti social behaviour and have less conflict with the law than boys from these same communities do?

and for that matter - why are girls in the wider society doing better at school now than boys? (Sucre mentioned this was the case in Europe, its certainly the case here, and I've heard it discussed by American colleagues over a number of years).

I don't actually think thats all that relevant because for the most part moving to those cultures would be widely regarded as a backward step, and ANYONE would find difficulty. In fact - being female in some ways may be an advantage because women in many non western cultures are often wary of 'outsider' men - but are friendlier - and very curious - about other women.

edit: also - on another thread in the last week or so someone commented about a girl he'd met - where he commented - that he wouldn't look at her as a serious relationship because she'sd had sex with him within a couple of hours of meeting him.

interesting isn't it. is it still Ok for guys .... but not OK for girls?

think about how many words there are to describe 'women of ill repute' - and then think about the equivalent term for men ....

and tell me, if I called you a term that described you as a male who sleeps around - would this generally be regarded as an insult?

what about if you called me a slut, or a whore, or something similar .... do you think THAT would be regarded as an insult?

maybe this is also something to think about.

This is something I have a problem with in our society. I'm not particularly fond of the words whore and slut, but I'd much rather live in a world where they didn't fit than in one where the behaviors simply weren't an issue. I have just as little respect for a man of loose morals as I do for a woman but I'm not going to let it color my behavior toward them(aside, perhaps, from pursuing someone romantically).

__________________
During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

Are you arguing women outside this sample do not believe that traditional male/female gender roles are are created by nature? I do not believe the women in this sample would be that far skewed from the national median. Traditional roles still predominate.



Boys are busy 1) beating the crap out of each other, 2) getting the crap beat out of them, or 3) avoiding 1) and 2).

Boys mature slower, and are genetically programmed to extremely stupid things to attract girls' attention.

Not really a privilege issue. This is the way we think. Sorry. This is just how it is, and how it's going to be. You can't take our minds.