but don't you think that too much s explained with biology ?

Biology evolves and so does our brain which adapts to its environement.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

The probem I have with this line of thoughts is that we would still be in the middle ages if we had been following it ...

People adapt to the situation they have. It does not mean that the situation is fair OR should not be ameliorated for those who want to have it otherwise.

The "glass ceiling" applies to all women, also the most ambitious ones, not just to those who want to stay at home.
It is a LOT harder for women to have a career if they hae children as well, it requires a double effort - so they adapt to the situation.

It is easier to adapt to a system than to fight against it.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

are all these social changes brought on by feminism?

Men started the “equal” rights for women movement?


OK - but you need to look into that a little more. There may be a number of reasons why THIS SAMPLE might respond that way, or there might be a number of reasons that can explain this. For example - income disparities between males and females who access these services may be an issue - as might be te fact that the type of women who use this service are atypical - and are specifically looking for people outside their ususal social circle.

just some thoughts.

Unfortunately those thoughts don’t add up. We weren’t trying to get women to spend hundreds of dollars, not even $20. We introduced a new $9.99 membership for women to spend money to talk to men but nope, they just wouldn’t budge.

We’re talking about millions of women from all over the world using this system.

What do you think it does to the male psyche to know that women don’t even think men are worth $10 to send an email to? Meanwhile men spend hundreds to initiate contact. Women have been spoiled with their constant validation from males that they are valued yet women appear to have no interest in returning the favour or even consider men to be worth spending a few dollars on to initiate contact with.

But of course we’re once again being told that women are the victims that don’t have any money so us men should feel lucky to be able to have the money to spend on women. It’s yet another negative aspect of being male spun into a positive by the female mind.

in the example you are giving it doesn't necessarily indicate that women are not coping at all - it may indicate that the women in the sample were taking advantage of the best of both worlds.[/b]

Precisely why I use the word “equal” in quotations in my first response. The “equality” agenda has nothing to do with equality. It all has to do with achieving it all, the best of all worlds.

The modern female will easily cling to words like “chivalry” and “tradition” in order to maintain their social advantages over men yet men aren’t allowed to do the same without being labeled a throwback chauvinist for leaning on “tradition”.

When women wanted to move out of the kitchen and move into the working world the men of those days also used the word “tradition” to try and maintain the status quo but women didn’t accept that. Yet men are expected to still accept women being progressive in the workplace and “traditional” in the relationship realm.

It seems men have come to terms with giving up some things for the sake of equality but women are not prepared to give up some things that they enjoy for the sake of equality.

This is what I meant by “not coping”. Women appear unable to cope with the concept of giving something up to get another. Men were expected to

Are men supposed to feel positive about watching women do everything they can to manipulate the best of all worlds?

show me some cold hard stats on that (abuse against men)

MenWeb-Domestic violence. 835,000 battered men each year, silent too Long...

There’s tons of information on that site for you. I’m assuming you’re female. Even if you’re not you seem to speak from a position that you understand the male reality and can speak as an expert on the subject yet it appears that you’re completely unaware of the now widely accepted reality (amongst those that care to know) that men have been keeping quiet about violent women in their lives.

Those that care to know have taken the time to read and understand the research. Those that care to know understand that domestic violence isn’t as lopsided as previously thought.

It appears that your perspective is out-of-date or that you choose to only expose yourself to one side of the equation and then assume that your lopsided perspective represents reality. It does not.

hardly surprising. how much time do men spend alone with young children (extended periods of time), what percentage of these cases occur when women are likely to be experiencing hormonal imbalances after childbirth?

Can men use testosterone as an excuse to define abuse as an “illness” that requires empathy, sympathy and therapy to cure? Or are men criticized for not being able to control their testosterone? I’d say the latter is the common perception.

Can’t women control their hormones? Men are expected to.

proportionately to hours of caring, you would probably find LESS women kill their children than do men.

Keyword: “probably”. I’ll use your own words against you here:

Show me some cold hard stats on that.

Also, how do “hours of

I don't actually think thats all that relevant because for the most part moving to those cultures would be widely regarded as a backward step, and ANYONE would find difficulty.

The notion of “backwards” is a relative experience. If you take a male from a foreign country and drop them into western society they may not perceive it as progress. For them it could very well seem backwards if they are steeped enough in their cultural perspective.

You’re communicating a biased perspective when you claim women have more positive experiences in new cultures. For the most part those women are perceiving themselves as receiving new privileges that they didn’t have before. They feel that they are getting something while the men may very well feel that something is being taken away (their power). Take anyone’s power away and they will most likely not have a positive experience.

Do women have positive experiences when their power is taken away?

and tell me, if I called you a term that described you as a male who sleeps around - would this generally be regarded as an insult?

what about if you called me a slut, or a whore, or something similar .... do you think THAT would be regarded as an insult?

If I went on a first date with a woman and told her that I have had sex with dozens or hundreds of women in my life do you think that I would receive a positive response from that female?

Do you think she would think, “Wow! He’s a stud. If that many women have chosen to be with him then I guess I’d better see what the fuss is all about.”

Not likely. Now tell me where the male privilege is again?

Point - Man

What is the "best of two words" ? "Social advantages" for women ?

If a man helps me to put my coat on, it a social advantage ? If he pulls the chair, opens the door, it is a social advantage ? If he pays the restaurant bill, it is a social advantage ?

Women will get tangible social advantages the day they get the same equal access to job opportunities as men and the care of the family is equally separated between the two.

You really don't need to push the door or pull a chair to your date if this costs you too much effort, you know ...

She would think that you want to have sex with her too the way you had with these women. If this is what she wants to, she will sleep with you.

If what she is after is a long term relationship, she will break off the evening and no, not even sleep with you. That is as easy as that.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

I suspect you and I are no the same page WRT this.

Its interesting that another poster (Publius) has this response to the same point:

no, I didn't say that

hmm - so what's changed - why were they doing better than girls until roughly the mid eighties? why does beating the crap out of each other interfere with academic performance NOW when it didn't in the past?

so are you saying this is genetic programming is a recent adaptation?

In recent years I have come to agree with Bertrand Russell, when he said:

"It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. "

I believe we are nothing more than intelligent apes, we are not rational, and most of our behaviour (collectively) is an extension of basic needs - including the need to attract/dominate mates, control territories, and warn off competitors.

I don't believe our brains have changed much at all with thousands of years of civilization - if they had would we really be doing what we are doing now?

Most of what we do is totally irrational.

my question was - are all these social changes brought on by the women's movement?

are you trying to tell me that the women's movement is responsible for the civil rights movement, for the decline of the government sector and increased casualization of the labor market, for the shift to conspicuous consumption that occurred in the post WWII period and continues to expand today, for the decline of manufacturing in the US, for the creation of new markets such as 'teenagers' (never heard of until the 1950's), the growth of supermarkets and fast food franchises, changes in technology which have contributed to massive structural change in the labour market .... etc etc etc?

All of these have had major impacts on the world we know today - and THESE changes(along with many others which I haven't mentioned) have played a significant part in the lives of both men and women - quite apart from any change that has come around as a result of feminism - in fact it is highly unlikely that feminism would have been so successful WITHOUT these changes.

And why should they?

the majority of women are (whether they admit it or not) looking for serious relationships. There is no guarantee that this is what men are looking for - in fact - despite what many men say, it would be reasonable for women to assume that men signing up for these services are looking for 'a good time' - which is fine if you are a man, however for many women it may not be fine.

therefore, most women will usually look at alternative ways to meet men. Meeting through family friends and known contacts are usually preferred. Many women will also choose to widen their circle of contacts through means where they are not stuck with a stranger on a one to one basis - and quite frankly for good reason.

the fact you don't understand this is where you fall down.

I had posted the comment in relation to your response that women were not coping well. It is quite clear that making the most of a situation IS coping well. whether you like it or not is not the issue.


I have absolutely no doubt that there are many men who are victims of spousal abuse, where the perpetrators are female. I also think there are serious issues in relation to verbal abuse of male partners, and the fact that many men endure these situations which are damaging to self esteem, emotional well being and health simply because to leave the situation may jeopardize their contact with their children.

But that aside - you choose to ignore that far more women - and children are victims of male perpetrators of abuse. In my work I have come across a number of women who endured years of abuse - and only left when their oldest child began copping the abuse as well. For many women it is when their children become the victims that they leave - and for many women, and children, it is too late - because the abuse cycle continues.

The fact is violent against women is still a serious issue in the US and virtually every other developed nation - it doesn't just happen in the third world. And more women are killed by spouses/boyfriends than through random homicides. Unlike for males - who are more likely to be the victim of male on male violence.

interesting comment. I think you only show one side yourself - and quite clearly are far more ignorant of the issues than I.

I think you need to find a little about post partum hormonal imbalances if you think this is comparable to not controlling testosterone. Post part depression affects significant numbers of women, and a small number experience post partum psychosis.

Please don't respond on this point until you've done some homework.

I think again you need to do a little homework yourself. Men spend relatively little time with young children, and very few spend extended periods of time alone with young children - this is pretty well known.


Backwards? most people migrate to the west because they see improved opportunities and/or safety here. To migrate is usually at first considered to be among the lucky ones.

I did not claim women have more positive experiences in new cultures - but that it may be likely that women may have .....

its not a matter of power being taken away - its a matter of not finding their way in the new culture. women are often more adaptable because they are more likely to communicate rather than compete.

would you expect a woman to decide not to see you again because you slept with her on the first date?

the fact is as long as we have different standards for male and female behaviour, then we have inequalities.

my question was - are all these social changes brought on by the women's movement?


My debate with you stemmed from the fact that you made a blanket statement that men are not coping. You did not offer any kind of elaboration to that statement. That is what I am taking issue with and debating.


My argument is in lieu of all of the social changes initiated by feminism, the past few generations of men have coped very well with changing their attitudes towards women and accepting new roles for women in society.


It’s an insult towards men on top of being ignorant to toss out a blanket statement that men are not coping well when it’s clear that men have demonstrated that men can cope well with change.

And why should they? (spend money to talk to men)

the majority of women are (whether they admit it or not) looking for serious relationships. There is no guarantee that this is what men are looking for - in fact - despite what many men say, it would be reasonable for women to assume that men signing up for these services are looking for 'a good time' - which is fine if you are a man, however for many women it may not be fine.

therefore, most women will usually look at alternative ways to meet men. Meeting through family friends and known contacts are usually preferred. Many women will also choose to widen their circle of contacts through means where they are not stuck with a stranger on a one to one basis - and quite frankly for good reason.

the fact you don't understand this is where you fall down.


Is this how the female mind works? Millions of you join a dating website, taking the time to meticulously fill out profile information, upload pictures and detail your laundry list of requirements that define the “ideal man” all the while assuming that the men in this dating pool “only want a good time”?

These are the same women that will spend many hundreds dollars more in salon appointments, purses, shoes, clothing, nights out with female friends but cannot bring themselves to drop $10 to try to email a few guys. In fact women hardly even used the search features to go after the men they wanted but had no time complaining to the company that the right man isn’t magically showing up in their inbox. The bottom line is that the message that sends to men is that women do not value men, not even $10.

Many, many, many men would call in asking, “Where is the equality? Why aren’t women paying? I thought this was the age of “equality”? I thought women didn't need men to finance them? The message these millions of women send to the millions of men is that men must foot the bill to make contact. If the situation were reversed, women wouldn't stand for it.

I’ll ask you once again, do you have any idea what that does to the male psyche? What is the message that it sends? Or is that not even a consideration within the female psyche? Apparently it’s not. Apparently what you’re saying is what matters most to women is what’s good for them. Yet when men adopt that attitude women will scream, “inequality!”

My point being is that for several generations now men have been bashed over the head by feminism to become more sensitive to the female perspective. For the most part the western male as excelled at becoming more sensitive to the female perspective. Where is the sensitivity from the modern female mind when millions of you don’t consider it worth $10 to spend to send an email to a few guys that seem interesting to you?


The only response is “Why should we?” Meanwhile, women consider it unacceptable if a male states, “Why should I?” when women ask men to become more sensitive to their needs, wants, desires, etc.

I also find it interesting that you can decide what men and women desire “despite what they say”. That’s a very convenient way to debate a topic because you can essentially debunk anything that way.


I had posted the comment in relation to your response that women were not coping well. It is quite clear that making the most of a situation IS coping well. whether you like it or not is not the issue.

Isn’t that what the men of yesteryear were doing which launched the women’s “equality” movement? The men of those days were coping fine with enjoying the best of both worlds. They were most certainly making the most of a situation. Apparently women didn’t like that very much.

Now it appears as a female you’re justifying and excusing the exact same behaviour from women and by doing so you become the very thing that you rallied against.

I have absolutely no doubt that there are many men who are victims of spousal abuse, where the perpetrators are female. I also think there are serious issues in relation to verbal abuse of male partners, and the fact that many men endure these situations which are damaging to self esteem, emotional well being and health simply because to leave the situation may jeopardize their contact with their children.

If you have no doubt that many men are victims of spousal abuse then why did you ask me for proof?

Now ask yourself, how many women in general are aware of the reality of male victims of domestic violence? I can tell you how women usually react – the very same way you did, with disbelief, demanding proof and usually laughing at the notion that men can’t defend themselves against a violent woman.

Also ask yourself how many women are involved in supporting these men? How many women petition their governments and communities to help these men? Not many. All the while these same women will chant the feminist “equality” mantra without even realizing that they are leading a life of inequality by not even exposing themselves to male experience, the plights of men in society, etc.

I can assure you that most women laugh when asked about what they know about men’s difficulties in life. Most assume that life for men is a walk in the park full of free passes and privilege and that only women can be victims. You need to only examine your own response for evidence of my observations and the reality of many women's attitude.

I think you need to find a little about post partum hormonal imbalances if you think this is comparable to not controlling testosterone. Post part depression affects significant numbers of women, and a small number experience post partum psychosis.


Please describe the different between hormonal imbalances in men that leads to violent behaviour and hormonal imbalances in women that leads to violent behviour?

Can YOU tell me why one is considered an “illness” worthy of empathy, sympathy and medication while the other requires the violent offender to be locked up and punished?

Can you explain why women receive lighter sentences for killing their children while men are locked way for many more years? Surely as a woman you are interested in “inequalities” within our societies so this inequality must surely get under your skin.

Now show me all of the women’s groups that are speaking out against this injustice against men. ***crickets chirping***

I think again you need to do a little homework yourself. Men spend relatively little time with young children, and very few spend extended periods of time alone with young children - this is pretty well known.


Where is your data to back-up this assertion? Oh that’s right – I almost forgot. Women are allowed to communicate their false assertions as “facts” but men have to provide detailed empirical data to back-up their assertions.

However, it doesn’t change the fact that you just asserted that the more time women spend with children the more likely it is that they are going to kill them. Perhaps then we should we pass some law that limits women time with their children.

fathers.ca/women_that_kill.htm

According to a recent book entitled Mothers Who Kill Their Children, by Michelle Oberman — a professor of law at DePaul University — juries are loath to hand down murder convictions for mothers accused of killing their own children. Such juries are even more reluctant to impose draconian penalties. A 1969 study by Dr. Phillip Resnick, the “father” of maternal filicide (the murder of a child by a parent), found that while mothers convicted of murdering their children were hospitalized 68 percent of the time and imprisoned 27 percent of the time, fathers convicted of killing their children were sentenced to prison or executed 72 percent of the time and hospitalized only 14 percent of the time.

More recent British studies by P.T. D’Orban support these findings. And although the United States does not have any formal equivalent to England’s Infanticide Act — which codifies a sort of postpartum depression defense — American juries and judges have taken it upon themselves to excuse and treat most of these mothers for mental illness while condemning the fathers as violent criminals.


THE MENTAL-ILLNESS FACTOR

The scholars, the media, and most of the studies do their best to persuade us that these murderous moms really are ill. Perhaps it comforts us to believe that anyone who violates the sacred mother-child bond is simply crazy; it would be unimaginable if these mothers were making rational criminal choices. And since women are not violent in other contexts, most scholars, including Oberman, argue that the majority of maternal murderers suffer from depression, postpartum psychoses, and other mental afflictions. But no one has put forth an analogous medical theory to explain whether fathers who kill their offspring are also depressed, isolated, or psychotic.

The problem with the “illness” theory is that it only goes partway toward explaining why women kill their babies. Illness may explain how some women eventually snap and behave violently. But it doesn’t begin to explain why they direct this madness so disproportionately toward their own offspring. Even taking into account that some small fraction of the mental illnesses associated with maternal filicide — most notably postpartum depression — are triggered by the births themselves, the illness theory doesn’t explain why mothers suffering from other mental illnesses, or who aren’t ill at all, act out with their own children rather than strangers. The illness theory doesn’t explain why we don’t consider fathers who kill their children to be sick.

its not a matter of power being taken away - its a matter of not finding their way in the new culture. women are often more adaptable because they are more likely to communicate rather than compete.


When I get on the subway and I watch women shoot dirty looks at each other because one may look better than the other, is that women communicating or competing? When I constantly overhear groups of women talking amongst each other about other women in highly judgmental ways, are those women communicating or competing?

Also, it’s still the immigrant male who is responsible for supporting the family. Here in Canada it’s the immigrant men that I see driving cabs while complaining that their engineering degrees and doctorates aren’t accepted in North America so they have to re-write licensing tests but those can take years. In the meantime they work what many of those men considering underpaying, degrading jobs while driving cabs. While they’re doing this, their women are at home taking care of the children.

Do you have any data to contradict my observation? Are immigrant women leaving the home to go off to work or are they continuing to stay at home just as they did back in their native country?

Tell you what. You go marry a man, move to a foreign country where your education is no longer valid, study to re-write licensing exams all the while working a job that you consider underpaying and underachieving while your husband stays home and takes care of the kids.

Which one of you is going to show more signs of stress and have a harder time coping with their new environments? I think the answer is pretty clear.

the fact is as long as we have different standards for male and female behaviour, then we have inequalities.


Precisely. Now tell me why so many women like you are either ignorant towards the male reality and/or would rather work hard to defend and justify the failings of women? You’ve spent more time defending the justifying violence from women against men and children.

If only you afforded the men of the world EQUAL consideration that you afford women. Unfortunately this appears to be something that very few modern are capable of – yourself included.

there is pleny of evidence that increasing numbers of young males are finding it hard going as a result of social changes that have been brought on by a number of factors. Increasing aggression, anti social behaviour, poor academic performance etc have all been documented among young males. Many older men are finding it difficult to cope with their wives increasing independence (Which is not just a result of feminism - but is often also the result of women participating in increasing numbers int he workforce due to the fact that a single income is for most people not enough to raise a family on). Of course most men DO cope - but a significant percentage are not coping well.

I don't really understand why you have an issue with that - if we can identify a problem, then we can address it. If we sweep it under the carpet because men want to be 'tough' well ... there are going to be lots of them that fall through the cracks.

many men are coping well - but many are not. What do we do about them? just say they are life's losers and expect they'll just have to lurch along? I can't see what good that does anyone - men or women. Identifying the problem and putting structures in place to help them (and its not just about attitudes to women by any means) would seem to be what you want I would have thought! (since you get upset about women getting support - why don't you want men to have any?

No - o

A significant number of women (most likely the majority) are quite understandably nervous about meeting a total stranger who is larger than them and whose intentions towards them are not known. These women will prefer to meet men through other avenues - so that they have reliable inform,ation on a potential date.

why is that so hard for you to understand?

LOL. well I have to say that IMO most women spend all this money on themselves to feel good about themselves, or to impress their girlfriends .... but its pretty widely believed that men like women to be attractive.

Would most men prefer to go out with a woman who dresses 'comfortably' and doesn't preen herself, but who pays her own way - or would they prefer a woman who spends heaps on herself and makes herself beautiful (or sexy is prbably more to the point) - but expects him to pay for dinner?

I'm curious about that!

LOL. I'd still be curious about your answer above. Last time I looked at any dating site men seem to want their women to look like models or something .... but maybe I'm wrong!

Nope. The guys I'm interested in communicating with wouldn't register either. If I were romantically interested in anyone I'd meet him via other avenues!


LOL - well since women have always - and still are - having to remain sensitive to male needs I don't