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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
Ok, I'm back with more math!
Well, I know this is incredibly sloppy, but the only way I can get a change largest enough for my calculator to track is to increase the time span we allow for m1 (the mass of hydrogen). The above post was trying to calculate the effect on the earth's speed of one second's worth of hydrogen impact. Whatever it is, its too small for me to calculate, so I decided to try for a longer time span, basically by multiplying m1. I tried for a day's worth of hydrogen impact, then a years, then a centuries and so on. All results still truncated. However! When I finally got up 1 Billion years worth of hydrogen impacts, I got a number I could track. If we assume the speed of the earth and the density of hydrogen remained constant, over a billion years we would encounter approximately 2.002 E14 Kg of hydrogen. If we plug THAT number in for m1, we get a Vf of 29.762999999003 Km/s which 9.97 E-10 Km/s slower than the original v2. Now, of course it would take calculus (and one serious computer) to actually compute all this properly, since the rate of impact changes based on orbital speed. But, none-the-less, generously pretending my calculations here are almost in the neighborhood of vaguely good guesses, over the next 100 Billion years the earth's orbital speed will slow down less than 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of its current speed due to impacts with hydrogen atoms in space. Now, my math is full of estimation, rounding, and assumptions, and I'm sure there are other factors at play than just hydrogen impacts. But since there aren't any other calculations in this thread, this exercise has made me feel somewhat confident that hydrogen impacts in space is not a limiting factor on the age of the earth. I welcome anyone who wants to check all the math for mistakes; I only worked this through once, so if you find some careless errors that change the conclusions, please let us know. |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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(Not that this is even a complete formula to calculate how much drag is exerted, we don't know if hydrogen is a constant over that periode. the sun shrinks 5 feet a day. Hell the earth would be inside the sun at it's present trajectory in refrence to how large the sun would have been that long ago.
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Only a liberal would know how hard it is to get a nicotine patch to stick to a monkey. Last edited by Hank; 09-06-2007 at 06:29 PM. |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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As far as the shrinking of the sun goes, 1) Do you have a source for the 5 feet/day stat? and 2) What evidence is there that the change in size is constant enough to be extrapolated backwards billions of years? |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
That depends. The way an atom of an element "disappears" is through a nuclear reaction, and then it becomes another element or isotope, depending on the element and reaction. Until the advent of the atomic age, nuclear reactions only occurred (in any significant rate or frequency to cause such massive changes in mass) on a sun. A nuclear reaction is the way new elements are made from other elements. Isotopes of an element can decay into another isotope, but is still the same element and differs only by it’s number of neutrons. For the most part (except for some kinetic effects) it behaves the same way chemically. The decay of an isotope does happen on Earth quite often and naturally. I am not really sure what you mean here, but if we are discussing evolution, then it would be best to stay on Earth.
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The heavier elements will decay to another isotope – same element, unless the parent element is radioactive to begin with. If it is radioactive to begin with and depending on the element, you will get another isotope, or another element (of lower atomic number) and isotope. So, this natural decay will only produce elements of lighter elements. True, there may be some evidence that the rate of decay of a radioactive element changes over millennia, but we are still only speaking about elements that start out as radioactive. But I'm not sure about which elements or situations you are describing. Quote:
Yes, it is. But carbon atoms used by life date back farther.
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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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We need the doc on this one, with interference fringes and variations in hydrogen density the formula would change each time constant and only be assumed after 5 or 6. Quote:
Oh, and I was wrong on the 5 feet a day, it’s 5 feet per hour: Articles / Impact / The Sun is Shrinking - Institute for Creation Research I usual go by memory of many years ago, I don’t like searching because of discrepancies. Now that I question today’s science I’m not able to check it anymore (Homer Simpson syndrome and all.).
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Only a liberal would know how hard it is to get a nicotine patch to stick to a monkey. |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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What we found was that the influence of a single atom of hydrogen per cubic centimeter is negligible when compared with the mass of the earth, even over a hundred billion years. The density of hydrogen in space would have to be several orders of magnitude greater to be a true limitation on the age of our orbit. It is possible that our orbit has only existed for thousands of years, but the effect of hydrogen atoms in space is not a factor contributing to that conclusion. |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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Secondly, everyone should remember that Hank should not be considered a serious debater.
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Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months! Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers. (Beckett) Last edited by IIIX; 09-07-2007 at 01:30 PM. |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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I do agree with Clerk, though; there is a distinction that should be made between discussions of science and theology. Both are valid, but they should not be confused. Most non-scientists, when discussing evolution and creationism are not really asking or desiring an accurate description of how we came to be, but are instead asking about their place in the world and their realtionship to the things that are larger than them, be it god or nature; feeling that one came about esentially by accident may be uncomfortable for most. For my part, though, I do find it to be satisfying on many levels to think of myself as part of a great family that encompasses all of life, or at least all of life on this planet. I don't begrudge the chances that could have come out differently along the way, since after all, if I hadn't chanced to be born, then I wouldn't have minded. |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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Ahhh, not quite, Einstein. Proton-proton fusion |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
To many variables, unknowns, assumptions and flawed argument. Even the doc is probably laughing at us more then an astrophysicists would.…
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Darwinism was one of many 1960's anti-establishment movements, I was there. Trust me, these people have no wisdoms to give to man.
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Only a liberal would know how hard it is to get a nicotine patch to stick to a monkey. |
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Re: Evolution: Conflict in the Classroom
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