Well, some of the deaths of people 18 and under can be attributed to alcohol, but all of them can be attributed to automobiles. I'm not being fatuous, but rather pointing out that all of the nanny-stating in the world won't turn piloting heavy machines at high speeds into anything other than an inherently dangerous proposition.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

It's not so much that people under 21 can't drink that's my issue. It's that not only can we not drink, we can't go in bars to hang out with our friends because most states don't think "minors" should be exposed to a "drinking environment." I don't drink often or much when I do drink, and my days of binging are long passed. (That's soooo high school.)

In the state of Oregon, we have a particularly oppressive liquor commission, which basically classifies things as restaurants or bars, with no in between category. If it's a bar, minors can't go in. The regulations not only create a social separation between people under 21 and people over 21, it also stifles the business world and excludes an entire demographic from the music scene.

I recently moved, and to be honest, I don't even try to make friends. Nobody I work with is under 21, nobody I go to school with is under 21, and that's basically what people do to get to know each other better. They go out. I've been asked more than a few times if I want to go grab a drink after work... nope, can't do it. After telling the potential friend that I'm not 21, and I can't go out, they generally don't want anything to do with me socially.

That's what I mean when I talk about a "social separation."

__________________
Weiner.

My problem with these checkpoints it that I find them to be burdensome and harrassing to people who don't drink and drive. While I have never encountered a DUI checkpoint, I don't like the idea of feeling like I'm crossing over from West to East Berlin while on my way home. Papers please. It's too big brother.

I guess that's the libertarianism in me.

I did however, get ticketed through a seat belt checkpoint once. I contested the ticket in court based on their methods and I won.

__________________
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

President George W. Bush, 8-5-2004

Carolina Politics Online

THIS IS REAL HOPE AND CHANGE!

Actually, I agree, except for attributing any accidents to automobiles, all accidents are attributal to a great or lesser extent to poor driving (whether a result of alcohol or not).

That said, the proper way to deal with teenage drunk driving is to restrict the hours they may be allowed to drive, and not allowing them to drive at night (when the overwhelming majority of teen drinking related accidents occur) and the parents should be held criminally liable for allowing them to be behind the wheel outside of permissible times.

What I would like to know from some of more liberal members of the forum is how, in your view, laws restricting the drinking age for people who are otherwise legally adults passes muster under the Equal Protection clause?

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

In Sweden, first offense DUI is an automatic year in jail(no suspended sentence either), and 10 year loss of license.
The bars have bicycle racks instead of parking lots.
That's what I call directly addressing the problem, I know people who have multiple DUIs, and while it costs them big bucks now compared to say 20 years ago, they still have their licenses, or they lose them for 60 days or something like that.
But I have always wondered at the hypocrisy or just plain idiocy of a system that says driving after a couple of drinks is wrong, and then has gin mills that are open til 2 in the morning, with huge parking lots.
When these places close, and a hundred people head out for their cars, you better believe that 99% of them are over the legal limit, why don't the cops set up a roadblock right outside the parking lot? (stupid question, that would be seen as a direct attack on a place of business).
This is one of those crazy cultural issues, that works itself out by fits and starts based on tragedies. Unfortunately, the subject is riddled with emotional and religious and political interests which make it almost impossible to address it with anything like a logical approach.

__________________
“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

Only the best parties! And dance clubs in certain areas won't let you in because they serve alcohol. Dave & Busters in PA won't let people under 21 in because you have to pass through a bar to reach the arcade. What a stupid, pointless rule!

__________________
Sever the line to the guilty past
To the ones who brought us nothing
Spoke of futures brave and proud
And brought only hate and war.
Lined the roads with hollow praise
Marked the land with paper statues
Shadows fell on their futile ways
And then there was nothing more

Really? This always kind of sounded like an urban legend to me, for a couple reasons.

First of all, there's a chance that the building the bar is in wasn't built with the intentions of being a bar. Especially if it's in a place with a long history and it was converted to a bar. I'd imagine that due to this, lots of bars would have parking lots, since the previous business wasn't a bar.

Second of all, bike racks? Operating any vehicle while under the influence is illegal, including riding a bike. Drunk people biking into traffic does happen and you have an even lower chance of surviving that sort of accident.

Next up, even if they didn't have parking lots, I'm sure you could just park nearby. Lots of bars in big cities don't have exclusive parking lots, but plenty of people drive and park on the street nearby and walk to them.

Last of all, do the people who work at the bar bike to and from work every day? If they made it so inconvenient to drive to a bar, this would have to be true, wouldn't it?

Do we have any Swedes on this board, even?

I think on balance people are less concerned about the safety and survival likelyhood of the actual drunken driver/biker than the are for the safety of other, innocent people. Not many bicycles that are gonna kills someone by crashing into them...at least not nearly as likely as if hit by a big multi-ton vehicle.

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

Sweden does have the toughest drunk driving laws and they produce results.
Sweden has the lowest traffic fatality rate in Europe.
In Sweden about 3% of traffic accidents involve alcohol, in the US it's around 40%.

And the legal limit is .02% blood alcohol, a big guy can have one beer, a small guy or a woman better leave before they finish the first drink. If you blow over .10% it's prison, first offense. In most of the US, you're good to go til you hit .08%.

In the US, it used to be a slap on the wrist for driving drunk, stiffer penalties if you got in an accident, and even stiffer penalties if you killed someone(this is changing a little).
In Sweden they figured out that no one chose to kill someone when they were drunk, but they did choose to drive drunk, so they put the penalty on the bad choice.

And yeah, bike racks, at least a lot of them do.
If you like knockin' back a few at the local pub, you are far better off on a bicycle, at least from a legal standpoint.

__________________
“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

Thus far, you are correct. You were not correct, however, in the fact that you can lose your licence for ten years. The normal limit for drunk driving is one year (while it is two months for speeding at 20 km/h above the speed limit), it can be more, but a maximum of three years. When you have lost your licence for more than a year, you have to retake the tests to get your licence back. If you do, you are required to undergo a medical programme for between six months and two years, under which time you prove that you are not addicted to alcohol. Failing to comply to this programme makes the licence suspended again.

The Swedish National Road Administration are testing a new approach, though. Instead of losing your licence, you get a licence that says you can only drive cars with alcohol locks. This means you have to make a breathing test that is negative for alcohol in order to start the car. It is possible that this will be the general rule in the future, instead of losing the licence.

__________________
President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

There are bars with bike racks in Sweden, but i do not think this is more common than in other European countries.

__________________
President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

Yes, there are a few of us here.

__________________
President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

my mother bought us beer/malt because we were under aged. She felt better knowing I was partying at home rather than at the beach. Perhaps the drinking age limit works in weird ways like this.

__________________

I find it pretty funny that some states in the U.S. (a official non-socialist country) actually have monopoly on the sale of booze.

__________________

It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

And a lot of your puke in Copenhagen. You should not be allowed to enter Denmark without vomit bags!

__________________

It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?