I hope this birthright citizenship question goes to the Supreme court. I don't think the 14th amendment was meant to give automatic citizenship to the children of people who are here illegally and under the law should be deported.

Rethinking Birthright Citizenship

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http://www.numbersusa.com

I don't think anyone should have full citizenship until they are 18 years of age, have passed a test in government, civics, and a literacy test. Such a law would automatically render children of illegals expelled. The 14th amendment should be repealed.

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www.richard-t-osborne.com
www.lonewolfsurvivalist.com

No argument here...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

What part of :

is unclear? Honestly, just like I tell the gun control proponents. If you don't like it, start a Constitutional Convention. But the language in the Bill of Rights is quite clear.

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If common sense were common, we would all have it (including me).

It needs to be repealed...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

I oppose amending the Constitution to remove birthright citizenship for children of illegal immigrants, although I understand the underlying concerns behind it which are valid. This method, however, isn't equitable or helpful to resolve those concerns.

First, place of birth creates a natural affinity to that nation for a great number of people.

Second, it is inequitable in that it punishes an innocent party. Those having culpability for such a person's birth are the parents who came illegally and the negligence of the government to monitor its border and/or immigration procedures aptly. The person born here had nothing to do with the conduct and negligence of those parties.

Third, such a decision may leave a child stateless as the parents' nation(s) have no obligation to accept a non-native born person as a citizen of their nation.

Fourth, it is a non sequitur in that this supposed remedy to handle the problem sought to be resolved is deporting the illegal parents. They can either take the child with them or leave the child, with the result being in almost all cases in this and other nations where this occurs that the parents wind up taking the child with them. Moreover, policies can be adopted to make the parents take the child so long as the laws of the parents' nation allow it because the children are minors and cannot make their own decisions until they are adults, and the parents are their lawful guardians until such time.

Do those calling for the repeal of the 14th amendment not realize the ramifications of doing so? It effectively removes the states obligation to uphold our rights under the Bill of Rights. State governments will be allowed to circumvent free speech, due process, etc very easily if they chose to. Remember, it is much easier to change a state constitution. A simple majority is enough to effect a change in many (if not most) states. Any state protections of those rights can easily be removed, and those that aren't protected in state constitutions would no longer be protected.

I disagree.

How many American flags do you see in this picture?

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Actually, given my teaching experience, this would successfully exclude MANY children of legal residents while many of my illegal students would have become citizens.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

That picture proves what, exactly?

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

It was in response to OSB's statement:

First, place of birth creates a natural affinity to that nation for a great number of people.

I don't see anything resembling an affinity for the United States in that photo, do you?

It was shot during an immigration rally near Balboa Park in San Diego. If any of those people were born here, but there parents are here illegally, it would make sense, if OSB is right, that there would be American Flags being proudly flown.

There aren't.

If those people are here illegally, they should've been rounded up and shipped, in a stunningly hasty fashion, back to Mexico.

If they're here legally, but were born elsewhere, they should, at the very least, embrace the country they now call home. I don't know about you, but I don't think flying a Mexican flag is the way to go about that...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

The Irish in New Jersey! Not a single American flag:





Italians in Chicago! No American flags either:



Well, here's one, but upside-down and below the Italian flag.



Now, interestingly, here's a Latino rally, and while the one guy in the middle's got some issues, I see more American flags than Mexican:



Hmm.

What's it all mean?

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I don't see the correlation with one photo like that. Around my region, it's a normal thing to have all sorts of ethnic parades. For example, I march every year in the NYC St Pat's Parade and go to others on different days around March 17 in PA. Irish flags and paddywhackery are worn and shown all over them. Whilst US flags are also shown on floats, etc, I'm quite sure I could get a photo shot where one isn't seen if I was trying to set a photo up to make it appear so. Almost all the people at such things are either Americans of Irish descent or just people looking to join in on the partying, which is very popular to do. In fact, St Pats partying is an American tradition that in only the past decade has caught fire in Ireland itself thanks to American promotion of it. It became an American party event back during the American Revolution period where even George Washington got into it. Washington was also big fan of Irish taverns and Irish people in social settings and subsequently joined Irish American social organisations such as the Friendly Sons of St Patrick. He was one of the first to receive the common St Pat's or Irish pub fan term 'honourary Irishman' which he enjoyed as much as they did. Not much has changed since him and none of that meant then or today any disloyalty.

It's the same with all the Italian, German, Polish, Puerto Rican and other many clubs and parades I commonly see every day around my region. Flags are common symbols of that ethnic pride. Even on our website we see it all over the place where ordinary Americans put their ethnic flags in their personal information. Pramjockey in this thread is but one example, and I've even seen pictures of him that he has posted in Scottish kilts and regalia that he's worn for events that express his pride in his background. I don't take any of that as disloyalty to America.

A Louisiana lady in my neighbourhood even has the Stars and Bars hanging outside her home. That isn't even a flag of another nation. Everyone knows it is the Confederate naval jack, but it doesn't mean she intends to express disloyalty and a desire to rebel against the nation. It, like other flags, is shown just to express her background of which she is quite proud, namely a Southern woman.

Those carrying those flags in that picture, as with the things I cited, doesn't also show that they are children of illegal immigrants. They could be foreign born (even visitors) or American born of ancestry of unidentified generations in America whose ancestry was legally admitted or otherwise. A child of illegal immigrants can be just as loyal as one who is of many American generations, with some of either not being loyal at all.

Should these people who are not "full citizens" also be exempt from paying taxes?

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If a neocon whines about big government wealth redistribution, just ask him what he thinks about the portion of that big government that sends aid to Israel.

Leave it to Steve to come up with a nonsensical anecdote and push it as his primary argument.

Holding an Italian flag does not mean you don't have an affinity towards the US. Likewise, holding an American flag does not necessarily mean you do (see: flag burners, etc...).

Furthermore, it doesn't really matter since, as I said, the picture is anecdotal evidence, lacking any sort of evidence of any scientific method of data collection.

As for Richard Osborne's suggestion:

have passed a test in government: What test? If it's anything difficult, I would say a huge portion of the country would be deported or deemed sub-citizens, judging solely from the number of people who voted for Bush. Anything simply could easily be learned by illegals.

civics, and a literacy test: same. A literacy test in what? Even if in English, the same will likely occur. Even though I support a national language (English), I don't believe it should be forced upon everyone. Government services and hearings will be primarily in English, but I see no problem with having a privately-hired interpreter present.

Such a law would automatically render children of illegals expelled: That and half the country.

The 14th amendment should be repealed: I think what you actually mean is you want to delete part of the first sentence of the first (of five) sections of the 14th amendment. And you are probably right, it is problematic when illegals can hop over the border, fart out a kid and "score" a citizenship.

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If a neocon whines about big government wealth redistribution, just ask him what he thinks about the portion of that big government that sends aid to Israel.