In Germany we have the same discussions about our health care system and how to fix it. As it seems the discussion in the US is just as unhonest and ideology driven as over here.
In Germany we are always just told, not to complain too much as our system isn't as bad/ruined as the Brits-system and not such a giant waste of money like the US-system, but noone is talking about other alternative systems/solutions in other countries.
Is this the same in the USA??

For example, I want to know how good/bad Finnlands system is compared to the US-system. The Finns spend about 7-8 % of their GDP for health, the US nearly 15 % of their GDP. Is the US health industry really so much better and if, are those better results really worth to spend so much money??

Under a National Health Insurance system doctors would benefit financially as there is no transparency, accounting, or competition in the system. Just like now with insurance, doctors bill at high rates and insurance pays it, because there is plenty of profit to go around. Unfortunately, as other govt healthcare systems show, the consumer will be the worst off under this type of system, as it will be abused as all types of welfare are. Its obvisous these few doctors polled havent thought through the problem. Luckily we still have 41% smart people left.

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http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

This doesn't bode well for proving your financial independence.

Should we all opt out of public education as well? Regardless of one's ability to pay for their own children's private education, it's still in their best interest to pay a modest amount to the public system in order to ensure a quality education for every child. It's in everyone's best interest that each child receive a quality education regardless of one's own ability to pay. It works the same for health care.

Also, there's no guarantee that the wealthy will always have their money. Wealthy people lose their fortunes all of the time, and then what? They'll lean on universal health care at that time, meanwhile they've never paid into the system. Universal health coverage is insurance for all, regardless of one's current financial situation.

My having financial independance or not is not any of your business or anyone else's for that matter. Also, my financial situation is not the subject, so this comment is irrelevant, at best.

1. Here's my whole post, in context.

2. Now that the search feature is available to all, do a search of my posts (even within the last month) and see what my views are about public education. You may find you are preaching to a choir.

3. The topic is universal healthcare and what MDs say about it; it is not about me.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Amazing how you can discern all that, given we've never even devised a system.

Remind me to ask you for lotto numbers.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

And the Plan for the millions without access to health care, unaffordable medical bills, and crippling monthly medication costs is:

(drum roll...)

"It sucks to be you, you shouldn't have gotten sick, it'd be best if you crawled under a rock and died, worthless scum."

Ladies and gentlemen, your modern compassionate conservative.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

Taken to the extreme, then, does the government have the obligation to ensure that people go to medical school?

Hypothetically, let's assume that med school enrollment dropped to nothing, simply because tuitions got too out of control. If healthcare is a "fundamental right", does the government then have an obligation to pay for the medical training of those who want to go, but can't afford it?

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

I cannot think of thing the government regulates or runs that is in good shape.......we have not even attempted to exhaust the ability of private insurance to do the job.

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

I don't know. I'm not sure that taking the argument to the extreme is helpful.

I do know that the government has sponsored people to go through med school in return for a commitment to serve in rural areas. So, I guess it's already happening.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Below is an explanation of how it works around here, might help. Note that, although the hospitals and insurance companies are 'private', most of them are non-profit organizations.

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Terrornoia: how the propa-ugandists used the omni-territorialization of terror for the fundamen-talismanization of criminal law in a multi-cultus-ritualistic society

I think that I'm not expressing myself clearly.

What I mean is "unwinnable" is the game of healthcare in general. That is, health care is designed only to postpone the inevitable. Theoretically, we could have a society without crime, without poverty, without drug use, etc, etc. Theoretically (well, for all intents and purposes) this is not the case with health care, when it comes to stopping illness/death. Regardless of what sort of system we adopt or laws we enact, the system will always "fail" people on a long enough time line. Or, think of it this way: some people blur the line between a right to, say, health care, with a right to be healthy.

So, we're socializing a system that cannot possibly please people. Obviously, people who have no access to health care will be pleased to have access to health care. But, when that initial pleasing wears off, and it becomes just another thing to which people feel entitled, there will be significantly more blame of the system for health problems (potentially not the system's fault).

And, I don't particularly want any sort of health care system in the country to fail, socialized or not. To be blunt, I don't want a socialized system, since the inevitable result of such a thing will be another vehicle for taking my money/property and giving it to other people without my consent. But, if it is implemented, I'd rather it be successful, so I could at least get something out of it myself (though I harbor no delusions that it would be "fair" to me).

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I think you're making a false presumption. The goal (in the longterm) of healthcare is not to prevent death.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

First of all, everything is a product - health care, education, labor/employment, etc. That certain things appeal to the humanitarian in you does not change their realpolitik existence as commodities.

And, the free market does not "fail" to work as a system, but rather it fails some variable amount of people in the system (or, arguably, those people fail in it).

And yes, you could make my argument with any consumable good. That was the point - I was trying to point out exactly that health care is a commodity and should be treated as such, in a frank discussion of the subject. It may sound callous to do so, but not doing so creates idealistic but unrealistic expectations.


Okay. I'm sort of addressing a general argument and not trying to create a strawman. Some people want full socialization/nationalization of healthcare, some people want a fund to pay insurance for anyone who doesn't have it... I've seen a range of ideas on the matter and won't attribute a specific one to you (intentionally) unless you support one.

Of course not. I'm trying to convince you that some people will go to the doctor for every cut, bruise, scrape, pimple, and everything else. And, why shouldn't they? If going to the doctor is good, going to the doctor more often is better. And, if a system were in place that makes this "free", people would take advantage of it in a heartbeat.

(A book came out recently about rational/irrational decisions - one of the most interesting premises was that something like 70% of people would opt to pay 15 cents for a gourmet chocolate instead of 1 cent for a Hershey's Kiss, but the number dropped to 30% when the gourmet chocolate was 14 cents and the Kiss was free - "free" has an irrational invitation for excessive use in people's brains. People will do things they wouldn't normally do or get things they don't want simply because they are free).


I think the core mission of any government is defining and insuring the rights of citizens - I don't like the idea of my government enacting legislation to look after my well being. But, I do think there's something to be said for encouraging preventative care as a vehicle for savings.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I'm not presuming that it is. The goal of health care is to insure health, in many people's minds. Some people are just sickly and there's nothing that can be done about it. This won't stop such a situation from tugging at the heart strings or often irrational assumptions that someone or something besides the person's own body is failing that person.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson