Right, but when nothing is legislated upon or written in the constitution folks usually vote on it right?

No, i'm sorry, i don't men to push you into saying roe is wrong, it just seems like what you've described above that you're opposed to! But hey i'm not gonna push that any further.

Right that's fair enough but i don't think you can define murder and outlaw without the end of the life, otherwise it would be just attempted murder no?

Correct..

And you would be wrong.

First, comparing the two is retarded. But I'll play along.

First off, the family can elect; or "choose" (which would require them to make a "choice") to have the person disconnected from that life support. Of course the person is "alive", in a technical sense, while hooked up to life support, but no more than, say, a head of lettuce before it's picked. Disconnect that life support; that "umbilical", though, and the picture changes dramatically. This happens all the time.

Second, life support really accomplishes only one thing: It saves the family grief. It postpones the inevitable. There's no viable benefit to the person with the tubes in his nose.Certainly there are rare exceptions, but those seem to be pretty few and far bet

Oh, so we should base legislation around your definition?

Fuckin' please.

The point of your comparison seem really to be only to weakly attempt to link to very different and unrelated issues in a pathetic attempt to appeal to emotion. Well, it doesn't work. Equating a fetus in the womb and a person on life support is just stupid...

Or they will decide its not worth risking thier life/going to jail, and simply have the kid and put it up for adoption. Granted, abortion will stilll happen regardless of its legality, but we can reduce it.

Yes. Two seminal papers in November demonstrated that desired results of preventing differentiation of non-embyonic stem cells is possible (but this got little press in the MSM). However, the emryos in suspended animation are not viable outside of a woman's body. That's why they are in suspended animation.

So, if Congress comes up with some legislation making abortion illegal, then the states will take it upon themselves to decide upon legality. Fine.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Good points.

[Emphasis mine] Yup. But, those who want that, fail to realize they are also wanting the USA to go back to the last century where women are second class. That's just fab.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

And how would they go to jail, again, if they got an abortion where it is legal?

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

People vote on representatives that make laws. If they think they can get something done to try and change things then it is there right to do so. Is your problem with our system as it is?

Well, in the case of murder laws it is going by a much more universally accepted idea of life but to avoid such problems like this I would be willing to go with something like "cause a person to stop breathing" if need be. I would rather have to get more specific then the alternative.

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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

A fair point, however a person is only taken off life support when there is no chance of recovery. Compare that to abortion, where you kill an otherwise healthy fetus, that would grow to be an otherwise healthy person. Another thing to consider is, you take someone off life support when its in thier best interest, when a mother aborts her unborn child, its in her best interest.

Where did I say that? I'm not so arrogant as to think my definition of life is the correct answer, my only point was your definition, being as limited as it is, is clearly not the answer either.
FYI, my intent wasn't to appeal to emotion, it was an appeal to logic. In my mind at least, logically there is no reason an unborn fetus should not be considered life, and I hoped my comparison would help make my point, however you seem unwilling to at least acknowledge other points of view, and other definitions of what life really is, and instead choose to label things you don't agree with as "fuckin' stupid".

No , no problem with the system. But with Roe the way it is it does stop states from determining their own laws on abortion which restricts them to decide. Ultra constructionists (not neccessarily my view though) that anything the constitution doesn't directly leave at the hands of the federal goverment belongs to the states. I'm not sure how practical that would be on the issue of abortion (50+ different laws would be absurd) but Roe circumvents it.

Fair enough. And with the issue of Brazil that you cited, eventually i'm sure universally abortion will become more and more restrictive. I haven't seen any other nation in the last 5 or 6 years increase abortion rights but i may be wrong. But there are even ways to get around that actually.

They wouldn't. Hopefully, however, the added headache / risk of life and limb would detur some women from having an abortion, and save some children from that fate.

And a woman doing what is best for herself is wrong? If there some advancement in technology that will allow a fetus to be incubated to term as a viable human being (whether through life support instruments or through inplanatation of that fetus into a man...not anytime soon, BTW), that would be great. Forcing a woman to be that incubator is taking her rights to her body away.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I disagree. The woman (and the man) made the decision to have sex knowing full well the potential consequences. I don't look at it so much as "forcing her to be an incubator" as much as "forcing her to take responsibility for her bad choice that effects another person." That claim would be like saying "forcing a man to pay child support is taking away his rights." I realise personal responsability has fallen by the weighside in todays society, but I feel we need to draw the line somewhere. If you are pro choice because you don't believe an unborn fetus is life, I disagree but understand the stance, if your pro choice because you value the womans "rights" over a a childs life, I can't even pretend to understand.

As the OP stated, this is not a discussion about when life begins. It is about the OP - laws. When human life begins and what human life is, is another debate.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Well, the two debates are one in the same. You can't really talk about laws on abortion until you define when life begins.

First please fix your quote of mine. Second, I disagree and will follow the wishes of the person who started the thread.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition