Makes more sense to me to have a healthcare professional making the determination as to the viability/risk to the mother, rather than some skeevy dude in an alley or motel with a shop-vac and a coathangar.

My biggest problem with the anti-abortion stance is that outlawing it isn't going to make it go away. Just nastier and far less survivable.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

You both seem so surprised that Steve started a pointless poll!

The argument that abortion should not be banned because some women would chose to break the law and have risky abortions is not valid. The point that people seem to be missing here is that the woman is not the victim, its the unborn child being denied the right to live. If someone chooses to risk thier life by going outside the law, it is none of the states concern.

It wont make it go away, but it sure will reduce it. No law makes a crime 100% go away, but they generally will prevent many instances where the crime would ordinarily have happened.

What if the child is now an adult? Let's say Barack Obama's mom decided to , exercise her "right" to have an abortion, post birth? I mean, jeez, why should the entire country be punished for her mistake?

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I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008

Such a ban would be unconstitutional in the US, since you would be condemning women to death by denying them readily available medical procedures that could save their life, but I could see where a law like this could pass muster in a place like Saudi Arabia.

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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

Not only would it be condemning them to death, but that condemnation would be for no crime.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I'm not holding out much hope that Traveler's going to add anything of value to the discussion...

And the fact that your poll is unanimous indicates that both those who are pro-choice and those who are pro-life here can actually agree on something is interesting, but far over the head of some.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Sorry i didn't get the joke in the first post you made....

His mom has passed away so that one may be unlikely but hey all you have to do is listen to his speeches on race relations and figure that someone is bound to take a shot at him right? I mean we're all such bad evil folks that oppress black people....like his grandma and stuff who all used racial slurs like nigga/nigger. She and his mom, and every other white members of his family is so bad...

Still, like he says, race is still an issue so you never know, maybe something accurate will come out of his victim card stuff.

Back to the infanticide issue (i need to show some focus on the topic or i'll get a pain in my neck lecturing me "stick to the OP/what does this have to do with the OP?"), the UK is the only country (Wiki page source) that has made a specific crime. And its only upto the first year of the child, after that it just goes to Child murder and tha's the norm pretty much all round the world.

Now that would of course piss on the "Well if i can't get an abortion here i'll just go elsewhere crowd" that sooooo many folks seem to have advocated in the recent abortion threads as pretty much all round the globe all abortion laws are becomming more and more restrictive. (Glad to see someone can take the initiative even though we're struggling). So hey why bother having laws at all? If someone is gonna murder why call it that? Why not just Obama's mom's right to chose? I mean i someone wanted to commit murder wouldn't they do it anyway?

The whole "they'll go elsewhere" argument is the single most retarted pile of garbage i have ever heard in my life.

Of course Traveler's been posting, but hasn't voted yet.

And there's always one...

Why? I come from a country where in the past thirty years there have been 350,000 births and 150,000 abortions (mostly in the UK and the Netherlands), even though abortion is illegal. Women do go elsewhere. It's moral cowardice to fob the issue off on neighbouring countries.

I've seriously argued for that, up to a point. What makes a person a person? Their reasoning ability? Their self-awareness? Their sense of humor? I'm sure there are other measures. Up to the point a proto-person exhibits an appropriate measure of 'person-ness', there is no greater objective loss or crime in having a 2-wk late period or outright infanticide, just a differing level of emotional aversion. Assuming a 'least common denominator' approach (i.e. showing any one of whatever number of possible measures) my son wasn't a person 'til 5 months.

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Today's forecast: Government corruption.

Tomorrow's forecast: 100% chance of more 'politics as usual'

Maybe it's finally time to vote Libertarian

So how long should the woman do? It's not like women don't know what they're doing when they get an abortion. Should the death penalty apply?

Do you have anything to back up your numbers? I am just skeptical in the accuracy of those numbers. That seems like an awfully few amount of live births in Ireland versus an abortion rate of nearly half. I dont know of anyplace in the world that experiences a nearly half aborted rate. But I will glady admit my being incorrect, Id just like to see what this is based on.

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Abstinence Education at its finest:

I don't think a poll with unanimous results as this one is pointless at all. If anything, it can provide a common starting point for consensus on a contentious issue.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson