Yeah, and you know what use THAT is for the average "joe citizen."

You need connections. You need truckloads of $$.

Otherwise you're ignored.

I'd say it's better than being squashed by a tank as you take the fight to Washington, literally. Yes, the wheels of democracy turn slowly, but it seems to be better than the alternatives where folks like Kim Jong Il get things done more quickly. The fact of the matter is you're always going to feel that you have a right to all sorts of shit that others (i.e. the law) won't enforce. That's just life. I feel that I ought to have a right to buy my 18 year old brother a beer, but the man disagrees. It doesn't do me any good to sign on here and claim that God gave me a right to do that, or that I think the government should be overthrown because it's gotten this wrong. In a society when people are inventing rights, people are going to feel wronged. And, the more rights you make up, the more often you'll feel that way.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Bullshit.

This is clear advocation.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Just lemme know when the big revolution comes. Gotta get my popcorn ready.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

So what you're saying is you're not willing to stand up for what you believe in unless there are "enough" also willing to do it.

Fair enough; sit back, speak not, and let the world continue on its' way...

Interesting opinions we all have here. Obviously, since abortion is such a sensitive issue, there are bound to be heated arguements.

IMO, no one is right, and no one is wrong, eithor. We don't know enough about human development to say for sure whether a fetus is a person or not. All we know is what the law tells us. The law tells us that abortion is not murder, but that doesn't mean one cannot hold the personal opinion that it is murder. The law also tells us that a fetus is not a person, but the law does not force us to believe this, allowing us to believe what we think is right.

I don't think it's fair for people to simply assume they are right, and to force their opinions on other people who may feel differently. For example, those who picket abortion clinics, harrassing women as they seek abortion. These people are entitled to their opinions, as we all are, but IMO, they are not entitled to stand outside abortion clinics and pass out information which is very suspect.

I remember years ago, watching television, hearing about a pro choice abortion march in the city of Melbourne, which had to be cut short because it was picketed by pro life demonstrators. From what I heard, the march in question was very peaceful, and these people who opposed abortion deliberately ruined it. This was not fair. Pro lifers are entitled to an opinion, they are even entitled to hold their own rallies, but they have no right to intererfere in something, and ruin it.
Since that day there have not been any pro choice rallies. If there was, I'd attend one, but at the same time, I'd be concerned - would be enough protection, security for us?

Of course, it isn't always pro lifers who interfere. I am sure there have been many peaceful protests against abortion which have been picketed by those who support it.
Protesting in this way is nothing short of disrespectful, and I think we would all agree on that.

I've been reading many thoughts on the issue here, and while all are the same opinions I have been hearing for years, there do seem to be different ways of arguing them.

What we do know so far about abortion is that it is legal, and that it is factually not murder, however, as I have stated, this does not prevent you from holding a different opinion.
We also know that legally, the fetus is not a person, and again, this does not prevent anyone from holding a different opinion.

We can also be fairly confident that enough time and research has gone into fetal development to know some things about the growing fetus, but not all. For example, we know enough about fetal brain development to be certain a fetus does not feel pain at all in the first trimester.
Do we know enough to be certain that same fetus does not feel pain in the second trimester? I don't know. From what I have heard - the fetus does not start to feel pain until the twenty sixth week, however, it could be earlier than this.
Most abortions after five months are performed differently than an abortion in the first trimester, for example. The mother is eithor given a general anesthetic, which in turn passes to the fetus. This means the fetus is unconcious, and unable to sense, or feel, pain.

This I have learned from speaking to many people, some who work at abortion clinics. Of course, you are welcome to disagree, as that is your right.

Having said all this, I should really wrap it up before I bore you all to tears.
As I said, there are some wonderful opinions here, but also a few insults, it seems.
I think people like to believe they are right, and those who see things differently are wrong, which may not be the case.
We simply don't know enough about abortion to know everything but I do think we know enough to know for sure about such things like fetal pain, sentience, etc.

__________________
The smile when you tore me apart. You took my heart, deceived me right from the start. You showed me dreams, I wished they'd turn into real. You broke a promise and made me realize.
It was all just a lie.

We know humans ability to tolerate wrong and corruption isn't infinite.

That's why we have America. It was the main motivating factor for its formation.

When the govt. becomes wrong and corrupt ENOUGH, peoples ability to tolerate it will reach a breaking point.

Thats all I'm saying.

You say:

In a society when people are inventing rights....

which is what we're seeing here. The "right" to kill another human being is certainly one of your "invented rights."

Killing another innocent human is murder no matter the mental and linguistic gymnastics one is willing to do to make it seem right. To make it a "right."

Anyone who believes it's murder, in spite of the fact that it's not murder (because, as we all know, murder is unlawful), is someone who wallows in ignorance...

This is not true. The reason we can't say, objectively and with proof, approximately when a fetus becomes a person, is not because we don't know enough about human development. It's because the word "person" isn't precisely defined. We need, not to learn more about fetal development, but to agree on what we mean by "person."

What I mean be "person" is the usual common-sense meaning, an entity with certain mental attributes, including a mind, feelings, and a personality. What Captain Trips means is something different. He means anything with a full set of human chromosomes that has the potential to become what I mean by a person.

If we use his definition, we know absolutely that an embryo is a person from the moment of conception.

If we use my definition, we know just as absolutely that it is not, but becomes a person late in gestation.

So it's not a matter of not knowing enough. It's a matter of not agreeing on what the word means. And even perfect knowledge of fetal development won't help us come to that agreement.

I completely agree with the rest of your post and the tone of it, but felt that this point should be made.

When one feels it necessary to call others "ignorant" for having different views on an issue, it only underlines the weakness of their own position.

Bullshit.

"Murder" is very clearly defined. To use that word to describe the lawful practice of abortion is ignorance.

Perhaps, instead of whining about the fact that I call someone ignorant, you'd care to point out the failing of my argument? Thus far, this thread is 13 pages old, and nobody's done that.

I harbour no illusion that you'll be able to, either...

That your only weapons are telling me I'm ignorant and telling me I'm "whining" and ignoring everything I've said, tell me that it's pointless trying.

Harbour whatever DE-lusions you wish. I'm not interested.

Since this thread seems to rapidly be devolving, might I suggest that, having established that abortion is in fact often a legal practice, we all just choose to interpret any assertions that "abortion is murder" as assertions that "abortion should be legally classified as murder"?

This discussion of the technical definition of "murder" doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything and threatens to provoke personal insults. I'm pretty sure all the points that can be made have been made; beating this dead horse any more will only be counter productive.

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To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society. -Theodore Roosevelt

Agreed.

It seems to already be doing that.

Oh, but those aren't my only "weapons".

I used clearly thought out logic and reason. Your dismissal of them is indicative of your inability to accept facts for what they are.

And, I note with no great astonishment that you remain incapable of pointing out where my argument is incorrect.

Fair enough...