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Abortion, Civil Rights, Healthcare and other Social Issues Abortion, Civil Rights, Homosexuality, Education, Healthcare and other such issues

View Poll Results: Which position best describes your view of abortion and the law?
Abortion should be legal, without any specific restrictions. 19 20.43%
Abortion should be legal, but subject to some restriction(s). 50 53.76%
Abortion should be banned, but subject to exceptions. 10 10.75%
Abortion should be banned, with the sole exception of when the life of the mother is in jeopardy. 14 15.05%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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  #286 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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Originally Posted by Hafke View Post
Again, you clearly don't understand the ramifications of an unwanted pregnancy. An abortion is a necessity for a woman who doesn't want to continue her pregnancy. I'd rather she had an abortion than bring yet another unwanted child into the world, to either be a lifelong burden or to be thrown into foster care. Children should be born to people who want them.
So your justification of "medical necessity" starts out with "I'd rather". I think you're going to be hard pressed to convince anyone that doctors should strive to cater to your personal whims regarding birthrates.
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  #287 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

It does seem, though, that if one is going to enter the medical profession, one must be prepared to set aside certain beliefs in order to effectively serve the patient. Medicine is not about the doctor's squeamishness, it is about doing what's best for the patient. Refusing to prescribe birth control on religious grounds is not, IMHO, doing what's best for the patient. It's doing what's best for the doctor.
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  #288 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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Originally Posted by pramjockey View Post
It does seem, though, that if one is going to enter the medical profession, one must be prepared to set aside certain beliefs in order to effectively serve the patient. Medicine is not about the doctor's squeamishness, it is about doing what's best for the patient. Refusing to prescribe birth control on religious grounds is not, IMHO, doing what's best for the patient. It's doing what's best for the doctor.
I tend to agree that such things are silly. However, would you support laws forcing doctors to do things they found unethical?
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Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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What logic?
Exxxxxxxxaaaactly...
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  #290 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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I tend to agree that such things are silly. However, would you support laws forcing doctors to do things they found unethical?
No.

I think that the medical community has a pretty good history of policing itself. I'd like to see those mechanisms exhausted first.
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  #291 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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No.

I think that the medical community has a pretty good history of policing itself. I'd like to see those mechanisms exhausted first.
That seems reasonable to me. One of my points all along is that you're not going to have a lot of doctors at abortion clinics that are unwilling to perform abortions, in general. And, if you have a religious doctor that won't put you on the pill... get a new doctor. Personally, I'd view that as a good way to vet a doctor anyway.
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Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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That seems reasonable to me. One of my points all along is that you're not going to have a lot of doctors at abortion clinics that are unwilling to perform abortions, in general. And, if you have a religious doctor that won't put you on the pill... get a new doctor. Personally, I'd view that as a good way to vet a doctor anyway.
That's reasonable, except when the doctor refusing to provide care is the only one in a reasonable distance. That's when I get concerned.
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  #293 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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That's reasonable, except when the doctor refusing to provide care is the only one in a reasonable distance. That's when I get concerned.
That's a fair point. But, even in that circumstance, I'm not sure forcing that doctor to perform or do things he wasn't comfortable with would be the best option. He might well decide to move or stop practicing medicine, in which case you're certainly not better off.
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Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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That's a fair point. But, even in that circumstance, I'm not sure forcing that doctor to perform or do things he wasn't comfortable with would be the best option. He might well decide to move or stop practicing medicine, in which case you're certainly not better off.
Oh, absolutely. I can't see trying to force a physician to prescribe a medication against his will, much less perform a surgical procedure. It's clearly not a viable option.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that before med-school is even considered, there should be some counseling about the expectation of providing patient care, even if there may be a personal objection to the care.
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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Oh, absolutely. I can't see trying to force a physician to prescribe a medication against his will, much less perform a surgical procedure. It's clearly not a viable option.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that before med-school is even considered, there should be some counseling about the expectation of providing patient care, even if there may be a personal objection to the care.
You know more about the field than I do. Wouldn't most physicians provide a reference, if they're unwilling to do it themselves?
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Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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You know more about the field than I do. Wouldn't most physicians provide a reference, if they're unwilling to do it themselves?
To the best of my knowledge, things have gone both ways. IIRC, referrals are up to physician discretion. I'd say that the good, honorable doctor would provide a referral, assuming he/she actually knew someone who could and would perform the procedure.

The spectrum of physicians is as striking as the rest of humanity. Genius to pure asshattery.
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Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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Originally Posted by SMadsen View Post
Right. In fact, if you superglued yourself to a person and that person went into his home, could you give me a reason why he shouldn't be aquitted if he shot you as an intruder?
A good reason why he shouldn't be acquitted for shooting me?
I can think of several. It would be an intentional and premeditated assault on someone doing harm to neither his person nor his property (assuming that I was just stuck to him). I could certainly argue that I was taken into the house against my will and that I was presumably doing everything in my power to leave as quickly as I could.
If the fact that this scenario involves me super-gluing myself to the guy bothers you, feel free to imagine that I was attached to this fellow without my consent. In fact, that would better parallel the abortion debate.

Really, I don't see how you can stand by the assertion that when two people are stuck together, one of this must automatically lose all his/her rights and can be freely killed by the other.

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As I hope to just have shown, you do not in any way void the legal protection of neither me nor my nose. I (and my nose) have the same rights and the exact same legal protection after you've punched me as I (and my nose) did before you punched me.
And by the same token, my rights haven't changed just because you and your nose have walked into range of my fists. Acknowledging your presence (and the fact that you have rights), doesn't eliminate my rights wrt to fist swinging, but it does limit the specific actions I can perform while exercising those rights.

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With that out of the way, yes, I am certainly setting up a premise. It is, however, not a result of not having asked the question you start the above paragraph with. Since I am in fact answering the question "is the unborn a person?", the question has of course been asked. The premise I set up is that, when a conflict arises between the already granted rights of a woman and rights being granted to progeny inside her body, then the rights of the woman are superior. Unless you can convince me that it's more practical to void the woman of her rights, I consider such a premise to be the most practical solution.
I don't see the necessity to void anyone's rights.

Exactly what right gets voided for the women here? Let's say at 26th months we recognize the unborn as a person, giving it roughly the same protections as is currently granted to infants (with some obvious allowances made for it being in the womb). How have the mother's basic rights changed?
She can't perform acts that would kill the baby, but then she can't do that after its born either. The specific acts in question change with the situation, but the basic rights are the same.
Does this limit the activities she can perform? Of course it does, but everyone's activities are limited to those that don't result in the death of another innocent person.
Even if some sneaky person manages to super-glue a newborn infant to its mother, that doesn't give the mother the right to kill it.

It seems to me that it would make sense to first decide should and should be granted rights, and to make that decision based on the individual in question.
Then we could work on figuring out what to do when the rights of individuals conflict.
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Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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Originally Posted by pramjockey View Post
It does seem, though, that if one is going to enter the medical profession, one must be prepared to set aside certain beliefs in order to effectively serve the patient. Medicine is not about the doctor's squeamishness, it is about doing what's best for the patient. Refusing to prescribe birth control on religious grounds is not, IMHO, doing what's best for the patient. It's doing what's best for the doctor.
Absolutely agree. They have to decide before they take their oath if they actually have the ability to compartmentalize their religious or other value systems (or lack) from their professional life. If they are not, then they should not take that oath. It's hard to serve more than one master and do both (or all) masters much justice.
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  #299 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008
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Re: One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

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A good reason why he shouldn't be acquitted for shooting me?
I can think of several. It would be an intentional and premeditated assault on someone doing harm to neither his person nor his property (assuming that I was just stuck to him). I could certainly argue that I was taken into the house against my will and that I was presumably doing everything in my power to leave as quickly as I could.
If the fact that this scenario involves me super-gluing myself to the guy bothers you, feel free to imagine that I was attached to this fellow without my consent. In fact, that would better parallel the abortion debate.

Really, I don't see how you can stand by the assertion that when two people are stuck together, one of this must automatically lose all his/her rights and can be freely killed by the other.
I'm not saying one must loose all of his rights. I'm saying that when a conflict between rights arises, the only solution to the conflict, when rights have already been granted, is to let the rights of one trump the rights of the other, - essentially rendering those rights useless although granted to the exact same extent as the rights that trump them. In case you succeed in arguing that you were taken into the house against your will etc., the other person's right to privacy is rendered useless by the inability of both of you to do anything else than cause you to intrude.

Of course, when rights have not yet been granted or only granted to one party, another solution exists.

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Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
And by the same token, my rights haven't changed just because you and your nose have walked into range of my fists. Acknowledging your presence (and the fact that you have rights), doesn't eliminate my rights wrt to fist swinging, but it does limit the specific actions I can perform while exercising those rights.
Right, your rights haven't changed one bit, either. The limitation in actions you can perform while exercising the right to swing your fist does not occur due to the presence of another person. It occurs because that's how your rights are defined. They can be withdrawn in case you violate the laws of the society that granted you the rights.

Again, I'm not talking about violation of rights, I'm talking about rendering rights useless as a result of being trumped by what should be equal rights. A can only trump B if A is not equal to B.

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Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
I don't see the necessity to void anyone's rights.

Exactly what right gets voided for the women here? Let's say at 26th months we recognize the unborn as a person, giving it roughly the same protections as is currently granted to infants (with some obvious allowances made for it being in the womb). How have the mother's basic rights changed?
She can't perform acts that would kill the baby, but then she can't do that after its born either. The specific acts in question change with the situation, but the basic rights are the same.
Does this limit the activities she can perform? Of course it does, but everyone's activities are limited to those that don't result in the death of another innocent person.
Even if some sneaky person manages to super-glue a newborn infant to its mother, that doesn't give the mother the right to kill it.
It should be rather obvious that the woman no longer has a right to decide matters concerning her own body the instance you grant an entity in her body any rights. It should also be obvious that the instance the entity leaves the woman's body, it's no longer a hindrance for the womans right to her own body.

And by the way, I will not discuss innocence in this context. That's solely a moral judgment.