I am going to present something written by Sam Harris in Letter to a Christian Nation. This is similar to things I've been saying in this and other abortion threads. He says it very well, though. He is talking about stem-cell research here actually, but the parallels with abortion should be obvious.

"Let us look at the details. A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100,000 cells in teh brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem-cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembering, in this context, that when a person's brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs (provided he has donated them for this purpose) and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst.

"Perhaps you think that the crucial difference between a fly and a human blastocyst is to be found in the latter's potential to become a fully developed human being. But almost every every cell in your body is a potential human being, given our recent advances in genetic engineering. Every time you scratch your nose, you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings. This is a fact. The argument from a cell's potential gets you absolutely nowhere."

I am in full agreement with this, and it is why I am pro-choice. I do not believe that an embryo at conception, or at any stage before the development of a brain capable of feeling and thinking, has rights that outweigh the right of a woman to control her own reproductive system. To make it illegal for a woman to terminate a pregnancy in its early stages is to sacrifice her freedom, dignity, and self-determination for the sake of something that is incapable of valuing its own existence. It is not right.

That sums it up for me and for most who are pro-choice.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

If you are referring to a fetus as a parasite then I suppose it would be a living being at some point or another.

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Remember the Turkey Genocide.

I agree.

Well, if this is true PaleRider then your argument is completely destroyed. You can't claim a human is a human based on having a human's DNA and having the potential to become a fully developped human being. That would mean you are made up of 1000000's of human beings. I belief those are the two reasons why you believe a human is a human?

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Remember the Turkey Genocide.

An embryo attaches itself to the uterine wall just as a parasite attaches itself to a host. Neither can live without a host but we do know that an embryo will become a viable human being. That being said, I'm also pro-choice....have sex and risk pregnancy or don't have sex....simple as that.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Most people are unwilling to make that sacrifice... especially them men .

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Remember the Turkey Genocide.

So for nothing more than sexual gratification, people are willing to kill a child....it's a sad world we live in....

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Absolutely not! Never would I suggest that an actual CHILD should be killed for sexual gratification.

An embryo without a brain, though, that's another subject altogether.

Good point. If there is an argument on the table that claims one is a human being because they have human DNA, then this is TheGreatCreator:



(It's a nucleic acid synthesizer. Anyone can make DNA with one of these puppies: Perceptive Biosystems DNA synthesizer 8909)

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

We've established that an embryo, while parasitic in nature, is a living being. The difference is whether that "embryo" is wanted or not...if it wanted, then we generally refer to it as a "baby", if it's unwanted, it's referred to as an "embryo", "fetus", "clump of cells", etc., which makes aborting it more palatable.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Whether it is a living being is not in question, nor is it relevant.

Whether it is wanted is relevant, but not to determining its nature. Wanted or not, it's still an embryo without a brain. If its parents refer to it as a "child" or a "baby," that's an expression of hope and desire, not of observed reality. I would certainly not advocate aborting an embryo against its parents' wishes.

But consider two situations, please.

One: A pregnant woman, after the shock of her husband dying in a car crash, gets very drunk, and miscarries.

Two: A mother neglects to watch out for her toddler, and accidentally runs over her in the driveway and kills her.

If I'm not mistaken, situation two might result in a charge of manslaughter or negligent homicide. Situation one would not. Do you think it should?

If not, then you don't really consider that embryo to be a child, as the toddler unambiguously is. Nor do I. It's a potential child, and until it has a brain, it doesn't value its own existence. So, unless its mother does, why should I? Certainly I see no reason to value it above the mother's right to control her own fertility and make her own medical decision.

As I have said numerous times, but apparently you aren't bright enough to figure out, your argument is a logical fallacy. You beg the question and assume a great number of things that you can't prove. If you can't prove them with something other than your own statements for corroboration, then they are worthless.

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Rem tene, verba sequentur.

Can you be more specific? What things can't I prove?

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Remember the Turkey Genocide.

It is possible to find any number of writers who will say whatever you want to hear. It is, on the other hand, very difficult, if not impossible to find any credible science that supports the pro choice position. Good ole sam's argument constitutes a logical fallacy. He begs the question and assumes that brain development is what makes a human being a human being.

Take good ole sam into a neonatal ICU and show him a child born with ancephaly, a child with barely enough brain stem to keep the organs functioning, a child who will never have a thought, never a feeling, and will, in all likelyhood never feel pain, and then point out that in the eyes of the law this child who has an IQ of zero and will never have more is exactly as human as he, and in the eyes of the law exactly as much of a person as he and watch his fallacious argument fall apart.

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Rem tene, verba sequentur.