[quote=Mrs. M;1301517] A scar. How awful for her. I bet it could discourage her from wearing a bikini. Lets see. The possibility of a scar for her vs certain death for the child for the crime of her father.

I understand perfectly what you are saying. That is why your arguments tend to be even more disingenuous and loathsome than those of the average pro choicer. People actually believe you are pro life and that is unfortunate. What you are is a hard core pro choicer who hides behind phrases like pro life, and realist, and any other pretty word(s) you might think of to obscure your true position.

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Rem tene, verba sequentur.

[quote=PaleRider;1301600]Thankfully, most of the posters here are intelligent enough to understand that not everything can be viewed in black and white.
Let me see if I can make this clear for you....should I type slowly?
I'm against abortion as a means of birth control.
I'm intelligent enough to understand that we will never outlaw abortion and if we did, women would die while trying to abort their babies illegally.
I'm also not only intelligent enough, but compassionate enough to understand that NO rape victim should be FORCED to carry her rapist's baby because it could be detrimental to her health.
You focused on the fact that she would have a scar if an STD forced her to
have a C-section completely overlooking the dangers of major surgery. How convenient.
Here's your opinion:
A woman is violently raped, gets pregnant, is denied the 'morning after pill', has an STD and now has to have a C-section.....oh....no big deal...we saved her rapist's baby while scarring the mother, emotionally and physically, for life. Doesn't matter though because the unknown baby's health was far more important than the health of the someone's sister, daughter, mother, wife, etc..

It's quite obvious you're not a woman nor have you ever been raped.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

But some things can and this is one of them.

I understand you perfectly. You are crystal clear, apparently to everyone but yourself

Which covers every abortion ever done except those that are done because the mother's life is in danger.

I believe your intelligence may be slipping a bit. Roe is balanced on a knife edge right now. The decision was based on an assumption by the court that unborns are at best potential human life and as such, the roe decision only acknowledges a woman's right to terminate a potential human life. There are cases winding their way through the lower courts right now that will force the court to examine not a woman's theoretical right to terminate a potential human life, but exactly what is being terminated. The original roe court acknowledged that should it be proven that unborns are indeed human beings that roe would collapse as the unborn would be protected by the 14th amendment as much as you or I.

You call killing a child for the crime of her father because she MIGHTcause her mom to have a scar compassionate? Another pretty word you use to hide your true position behind.

By the way, the child is her child as much as the rapists. Also, since you are sooooo intelligent, I am sure that you know that barely 1% of rapes result in pregnancy. Aside from that precious few and those in which the pregnancy represents an imminent threat to the mother's life, do you favor eliminating abortion as an option? Of course not. BECAUSE, you are a hard core, staunch pro choicer.


You claim to be a nurse. Explain why there is an epidemic of C-sections today, even when women are perfectly capable of delivering a child normally. Explain why, if a C-section is such a danger that doctors prefer to deliver a child in such a manner? Why is a c-section the most common major surgury performed in the US?

The child is a child, as much as your own child without regard to who her father is. You seem to be angry at the child because of her parentage? Do you view all children in the same manner? Tell me, if you needed a kidney, would you take it from your own child because your health is more important than hers?

A "compassionate" person does not consider the convenience of adults over the very life of a child. You can claim compassion if you like, but it is a disingenous claim.

Irrelavent. Arguments do not have genders. There are plenty of women who make the same argument as me for not allowing abortion in the case of rape. Do you answer them with the same pitiful excuse for logic and blatantly false compassion that you gave me?

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Rem tene, verba sequentur.

[quote=Mrs. M;1301625]Mrs. M., I agree with everything you're saying, but I also agree with PaleRider (however obnoxious he continues to be in the way he says it) that this position is inconsistent with a belief that an embryo at conception is a human being with human rights. The problem is that acting on this belief is itself inconsistent with any kind of humane treatment of people that we know are human beings -- as you have said.

The traumas associated with rape and bringing a rapists' child to term are indeed serious, and not to be trivialized by acting as if they were something cosmetic. But however serious they are, they are not fatal, while abortion, for the embryo, is. And I use the word "fatal" judiciously, because whether or not an embryo is a human being (I think not), it is without doubt alive and abortion without doubt kills it. So if it were a human being, then killing it would be murder and that would outweigh even the most grievous non-fatal consequences of denying a rape victim that option.

I say again: your position is inconsistent with a belief that an embryo at conception is a human being. And so I don't believe that, in your heart, you really do believe that. PaleRider is off-target, and quite typically immature and nasty (and really needs to grow up) in calling you "hard-core" pro-choice. But you are pro-choice. If you disapprove of using abortion as birth control, then maybe that makes you "soft-core" pro-choice.

[quote=TSGracchus;1301904]If she only advocated abortion as a choice for rape and instances in which the woman's life or long term health were in imminent danger, then she could be called "soft core" pro choice. That is not her stance however. She has admitted that she would not want to see the choice of abortion taken off the table for any circumstance. How much more "hard core" could she possibly be?

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Rem tene, verba sequentur.

Okay, for some reason, you two want to paint me as a hypocrite or something...
My position is that abortion should be an option when the mother's health is in jeopardy. Rape can cause traumatic, lifelong problems so I include it in with the mother's health. Yes, abortion kills a baby, but since I believe in an afterlife, I feel that all those babies are in Heaven I that's a far better place than earth. Guarantee me that a rape victim will have a 100% recovery from not only being raped but from also being forced to carry her rapist's baby and I'll gladly remove them from my exceptions. Oh, and PaleRider, as for how many rapes result in pregnancy, I had posted that information earlier.
I would LOVE to see abortion outlawed but outlawing won't keep people from doing it so that's obviously not the answer. The answer is, instead, in education and birth control accessibility. That is obviously working because the number of abortions have been in a decline for years. I pray for the day when ALL women use contraceptives instead of abortion to prevent the birth of a baby.
I believe that Roe v. Wade won't be overturned but if it is, then control would go back to the states and there'll be some states, especially in the south, that will make abortions illegal. Louisiana already has a law ready to be enacted if that day comes.

PaleRider, first of all, I don't "claim" to be a nurse, I am a nurse. As for the number of C-sections performed each year, all I can say is shame on the doctors! They often do this for "convenience, the same reason they usually induce labor instead of letting Mother Nature take her course, which is healthier. "Convenience" babies are generally delivered when the pregnancy is about 35 weeks and yet full term is 38-42 weeks. Those three weeks can make a difference in the babies overall health!
You seem to link the number of C-sections with the safety of it but it doesn't work that way. There are many problems that can and do occur when a woman is cut open and each patient is different. One problem is that if she plans on a large family, each C-section weakens the uterine wall at the suture line and can rupture during future pregnancies. C-Section patients also lose at least twice as much blood as those delivering vaginally which means there are times when blood transfusions are necessary. Then there's the complications that can occur if the doctor nicks another organ during the surgery. And of course, with any major surgery, there's the possibility of blood clots. The list could go on. I shouldn't even have to go into the cost and recovery time of C-sections v. vaginal births because common sense should prevail here.
You also bring up that a baby that results from rape is the mother's baby, too. Not all women can look at it that way because they had no choice in the matter and so they may have a hard time loving the product of a violent crime. Sure, they could have the baby and give it up for adoption which isn't a bad idea if they can deal with carrying the child for nine months. Not all women will be able to carry it though without suffering mentally and physically and since waiting to see if she can handle it means that the baby is growing everyday, I'd rather that the morning after pill is available instead of aborting a 4 month baby!
So, call me "pro-choice" is you must but realize that the world isn't perfect and instead of a lot of "black and white", there's a helluva lot of "gray".

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

No, I don't think that's the right word. Hypocrisy implies that someone knowingly misrepresents their position. I think you're being entirely honest. But there's a disjunct between your stated spiritual beliefs and your stated ethical beliefs, just the same.

But the same can be said of any innocent murder victim, right? So why hesitate to kill someone (unless they're wicked, of course). (And if you think about it, that's really perverse -- usually, if one is to kill anyone, one would prefer to kill the wicked and spare the innocent, not the other way around.)

But in fact Christians almost never behave as if they really believed in Christian doctrine. If they did, they'd behave like total lunatics, which happily most Christians aren't.

What you're saying here is that the harm -- and it is serious harm, I agree -- from forcing a rape victim to carry the rapist's child to term outweighs a murder. I agree with you as to what ought to be done, but that's because I don't consider an embryo to be a human being, and so I don't consider abortion murder. On one side of the scale, we have the suffering and trauma, both physical and emotional, of the rape victim. On the other side, we have, not the killing of a person, but the prevention of a person from ever existing. Clearly, the harm to the rape victim weighs heavier, because it's serious (if non-lethal) harm to an actual person, whereas the abortion is harm only to a potential person -- virtual harm, you might say, compared to real harm. But if I believed as you say you do, I wouldn't think this way.

What I'm seeing is that, in your heart, you believe that an embryo isn't a human being, but that it's important just the same for its potential. Abortion isn't murder, but it's not something to do casually or for frivolous reasons just the same.

I think that there are plenty of health care professionals who have strong faith and beliefs in their particular doctrine, yet are able to separate (or compartamentalize) beliefs with professional views. These folks are worthy of much respect. I think that's what Mrs. M is doing, but she can correct me if I am wrong.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Compartmentalizing. That's a pretty word to hide behind. Maybe she can use that one next time she tries to convince someone that she is a pro life pro choicer.

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Rem tene, verba sequentur.

I do believe with all my heart that life starts at conception but as a nurse and a mother that miscarried at six weeks, I've seen that life (we had to save anything passed by a mother threatening a miscarriage for the lab) and if I have to make a choice on saving mother or baby, I'm going to save the mother as any health care professional would. As far as that goes, if a man is told that only one can be saved, his wife or his baby, he would tell the doctor to save his wife at all costs. That's just human nature whether you believe abortion is killing a baby or not. It's a little easier to lose those whom we haven't met than those whom we've built a life with.
There was a time when I wanted Roe v. Wade overturned until I faced the reality of what would happen if it was. I'm just not willing to risk losing a teenage girl that gets pregnant and is afraid to tell her parents so she opts for back alley abortion which causes her to bleed to death.
As I said before, put whatever label on me that makes you happy but you'll find that labels often come with disclaimers.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Thank you for seeing what others cannot...you're a sweetheart!

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Yeah, I never could see those clothes on the emperor, no matter how many people told me how beautiful they were. The fact is that the emperor was naked and you are a pro choicer.

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Rem tene, verba sequentur.