But in cases of accidental pregnancy where abortion is even considered, that is also the case.

It's rather a stretch in any case. I've always felt that an exception for rape or incest, if one is going to buy into the arguments in favor of an abortion ban to start with, is not defensible. A long time ago, I read an article by someone who put it this way (I may not recall the exact language, of course), and I found it impossible to refute (except by refuting the underlying anti-choice premise itself):

"Would you force a woman to bear the child of a rapist? No, the rapist did that. All I would do is prevent her from compounding the rapist's crime with an even more serious one: murder."

And although a danger to the mother's mental health is certainly possible if she becomes pregnant through rape, it is by no means a given, and -- assuming, again, that we're convinced an embryo is a person -- surely it would make more sense to deal with any such danger through counseling rather than through abortion.

To me, someone who calls abortion "murder," but also calls for allowing it in cases of rape, is showing that he or she doesn't really mean that abortion is murder. This idea is not giving the crime of "murder" the seriousness it merits.

As for incest, there's a genetic danger to the child itself, but that isn't a certainty, either, and can be medically detected nowadays fairly early in the pregnancy.

Your hamster analogy is absolutely the context I'm referring to. Now, have the state grant your super-glued-to-your-forehead hamster the same rights that you've been granted and you'll have the exact same conflict of rights on your hands. Or on your forehead.

A right is worthless if the subject is not free to exercise the right.

Correct. No condition, situation or event makes any organism a person with rights without the explicit rule that such an organism shall become a person with rights.

Clearly, you need to be educated on exactly what "murder" is.

"Murder" is an unlawful act.

"Period".

Abortion, on the other hand, is a lawful procedure. That means it's "lawful". That means it's "legal". That means it's not unlawful.

This is where you pro-lifers consistently fuck up. You insist on characterizing abortion as something that it simply isn't, with some slim hope that it'll appeal to emotion as opposed to reason and logic.

Characterizing something as an illegal act does not, in any way, shape, or form, make it an illegal act...

I ran a poll regarding that, and was criticized for posting a flawed poll, because everyone who responded said they would allow for abortion under certain conditions.

You see, it's only "murder" when it serves the argument of the pro-lifers...

In addition to TSGracchus' excellent reply, it's worth repeating the inconsistency between the anti-choice argument of the right to live and the exception where the same right is eliminated by the mere happenstance of a parent's behavior. In no other instance, fortunately, is the right to live approached in the same fluky way.

I regard abortion as the killing of an innocent but I must put the mother's well-being first. I agree that counseling may help but the trauma of rape itself, compounded by carrying the rapist's baby for nine months isn't something that can be "cured" overnight. Suppose the girl was a 14 year old virgin and she was raped? Don't you think it would be better to abort the baby than have the mother go through nine months of pregnancy that she would have to explain to everyone? Can you truly imagine what that would do to a child? Living with the rape would be bad enough but having to give birth at such an early age could endanger not only her physical health but her mental health, too. Exceptions must be made!

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

So, it's okay to 'kill' the baby if it's father made the terrible mistake of raping someone, but it's not okay to 'kill' the baby if it's mother made the terrible mistake of not using contraceptives?

__________________
"Anyone that needs what they want, and doesn’t want what they need
I want nothing to do with
And to do what I want
And to do what I please
Is first on my to-do list"
-Gnarls Barkley, "Going On" lyrics

Nope, don't twist it. What you should have asked is "So, it's okay to kill the baby if it's mother was forcibly raped but not okay to kill the baby if the mother had voluntary unprotected sex?" There's a big difference there but as I've said before, a mother's life must be put first, even at the expense of an unborn baby.

__________________


"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

I thought the premise of your poll was interesting. It demonstrated that nobody really cops to the idea that abortion is always murder. Whether it is murder or not, apparently, depends on the sexual behavior of the mother exclusively and ironically has nothing to do with the supposed 'victim'.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

There's not really a big difference in the wording. In both situations, the baby is 'innocent', yet it's only okay to 'kill' it in one of them.

__________________
"Anyone that needs what they want, and doesn’t want what they need
I want nothing to do with
And to do what I want
And to do what I please
Is first on my to-do list"
-Gnarls Barkley, "Going On" lyrics

* No, no "fuck up."

Lets read the entire text of what I said in # 69: *

Because a particular congregation of humans has made an action "legal" or an accepted practice doesn't make it right.

Killing another human is murder.

Period.

What we're really arguing about is our opinions of when a human becomes a human.

Some of us beleive that when we slide out of the holiest of holies, we're sprinkled with a sort a magic dust that makes us human. Others beleive that a human is formed when the male sperm and female egg combine their DNA to make a separate entity.

A separate entity that is genetically a human.

It's really an argument about how much each of us values life.

One last abortion poll (Now with more options!)

And repeating an inaccurate definition doesn't make it accurate, even with bold face and red fonts.

But, as long as we're playing that game, anyone who calls abortion murder is a murderer.

Can you live with being a murderer, Thane?

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

No, Thane, it's not. Killing another human being can be murder, but is not always murder.

Check any definition of the word 'murder' and you will see the word 'unlawful' used.

If a pedestrian runs out in front of my car while I'm driving and they die, did I just murder them? Are our troops over in Iraq murdering insurgents? Do we murder murderers when we execute them?

__________________
"Anyone that needs what they want, and doesn’t want what they need
I want nothing to do with
And to do what I want
And to do what I please
Is first on my to-do list"
-Gnarls Barkley, "Going On" lyrics

I disagree. In one case, mother and baby are innocent while in the other, only the baby is innocent. When one much chose whether to save an innocent mother or an innocent baby, then the mother takes priority.

__________________


"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"