[Emphasis mine] Not right now....grrrrrr. Again, our particular database server seems to be down yet again (bad week for the CIT guys).

But, a PubMed search revealed a few (four total) articles when I entered in "transgender children". (PubMed is public.) And, I haven't emailed anyone (taking my first break since this morn).

But, with such little known, I would be very surprised that the FDA has approved any sort of chemotherapy on transgendered prepubescents.

Here's two of the four abstracts (saving space):

The diagnosis and care of transsexual children and...[J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2006] - PubMed Result

Working with nonheterosexual youth to understand s...[Psychol Rep. 2005] - PubMed Result

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I don't know how to answer the question "is there anything wrong with being male/female". This is like "is there anything wrong with being human?" I suppose it depends on the subjective morality of whoever is the beholder, though I don't think the question really asks anything substantial. It also is a wash in terms of sex change operations since if the answer is "no, there's nothing wrong with it" then that would apply both to the original and the new sex.

Regarding your last statement, not everyone would agree with your take that there is nothing morally wrong with beards and obesity. It just appears to me that you have a vague idea that changing someone's sex is "wrong" and are operating from there. My question of "who cares" isn't a constitutional one, but a practical one. What does it matter to you if others opt to alter or mutilate their bodies?

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I think that a lot of it can be detected by conscience (something that everyone has). Ultimately, you compare society to good solid principles and see how it measures up. We have improved in many regards, there is no reason at all to deny that but we have to admit that there are many places where society has chosen immorality. An example is this particular case. Society today often tampers with matter of sex and sexuality in ways that it ought not to.

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Those who argue for complete secularism are funny. They see what government does and then argue that we don't need it to start with prayer.

This doesn't work, not everybody adheres to the same morals. I would say putting a ban on sex change operations would be immoral, as it basically removes someone's personal freedom to do what they wish. It places restrictions on people who are different from us, simply because we dictate it to be so. Using this example, I could argue that you are advocating making this nation less moral.

Actually, you missed my point. By asking the question I was basically implying that because there is nothing wrong with being the gender that you are, there can be no reason for you to change it. Besides, being a particular gender is not wrong but choosing to change that gender violates who you are, goes against nature, goes against good moral principles and, at least in my opinion, runs contrary to common sense. Please understand that I have no personal bone to pick with these individuals, I would treat them with all the respect and dignity that human beings deserve, but I oppose their actions.

I actually answered this already. It matters to me because what affects society affects all members of society, including me. If society moves in an immoral path then society will feel the consequences of that path.

I sense that you believe that all morality is subjective. (I could be wrong, however) It is true that there does exist some subjective morality in this world but to suppose that all morality is subjective just because some of it is is a falsehood. (I don't know if that is your basis for such a belief or not but I thought I would address it just in case) There exist moral laws just like laws of motion. Some of these have exceptions to them while others don't. An example of one that I feel does not have an exception is rape. As far as I can see rape is always wrong. The examples of beards and such are probably examples of the subjective brand of morality.

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Those who argue for complete secularism are funny. They see what government does and then argue that we don't need it to start with prayer.

I wouldn't expect any less than the last sentence. You seem a respectful sort.

And, I did understand your point, as you call it. I just don't agree that it is a point, per se. The idea "there is nothing wrong with what you are and therefore there is no reason to change" is not logically sound. If we applied this across the board, there would be no reason for B students to try for A's. There's nothing wrong with getting a B, so why bother getting an A? You could also apply this principal to what we discussed earlier - there's nothing wrong with facial hair, so there is no reason to shave. Applying your reasoning here, getting A's and shaving are both immoral, especially shaving, since it "goes against your nature" and quite probably "runs contrary to common sense".

The only logical difference in my scenario and yours is that you arbitrarily have an issue with one of the violations of "human nature" but not the other.


This has always seemed a general catch-all that allows for resistance to change without a logical reason. It relies in the tenuous proposition that something is 'immoral' and further on the tenuous proposition that this 'immorality' will somehow go on to affect you personally.

I believe in God, which means I believe that there is some kind of objective morality as defined by God. I also believe that God has not weighed in on the subject to clear it up so, in practice, we have 6 billion different takes on morality, many of them claiming to be objective or God's will. So while I believe that some objective morality exists, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's and morality is, in practice, completely subjective. This serves well to explain why our society frowns on practices that were once considered perfectly reasonable and morally fine, such as slavery, pedophilia, human sacrifice, and, since you mention it, rape.

You're (it appears to me) declaring beards to be subjective because they don't matter to you (and, by extension, God) while you believe God does care about sex change operations. But, really it's you that cares about one and not the other, and invoking God (objective morality) appears to lend weight to your claim.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I never get the moral decay arguement-as far as I'm aware societys been in moral decay since about 1100 AD (and probably before then) ad yet it seems better than ever to me. Thats becuase morals are subjective and change with each age-I have very diffrent morals to my parents for example, I'm more free about sex, sexuality and I'm a great beliver in free choice. Am I less moral? Probably not, but I'm just a product of a diffrent, post-socalist age. In a similar context my Granfather has diffrent moral to my parents and me, influenced by the war and the great depression.

Look at it this way, in 1834 the New Poor Law was passed in parliment, on of the reasons being to try and make the poor more moral and improve moral standards (poverty being blamed on immorality at that point.) Now to me that act is compeltly immoral, it stigmatises people for ebing poor, has a great impact on there personal liberty (the workhouse) and so forth. Yet it was conceved as a very moral way of doing things. I always love people who want to go back to 'victorian values'-there the values of the workhouse, snobbery, nepotism and irresponsable capitalism.

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I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. - Art of War, Sun-Tzu, Chapter 2, Paragraph 6

"An eye for an eye makes everyone blind"-Gandi

I'm not sure both those analogies hold up, good doctor. There may be nothing "wrong" with getting a B, but almost by definition, an 'A' is superior to a 'B', just as there may be nothing "wrong" with being satisfactory, but it is by definition inferior to being excellent. I imagine it would be unhealthy to look at genders is a similar light.

WRT to shaving, the analogy is better but still questionable. A person who shaves because the beard annoys him is one thing and his response is perfectly rational and healthy. A person who doesn't mind the beard but shaves because he has personal insecurities related to facial hair is something else, but since shaving is a relatively trivial practice it probably isn't anything to be concerned about.
The less trivial the practice, the greater the issue becomes. When a women gets a boob job and an extensive face lift, we tend to suspect there are some deeper insecurities involved that the operations probably didn't address. Maybe it's just a cosmetic choice, no different from choosing brown shoes over black. But the expense, pain and time involved naturally make one wonder if such things aren't symptoms of a deeper emotional or psychological inability to be happy with one's natural identity.

And what is a gender change but truly extensive plastic surgery combined with hormone treatments? Its certainly possible that some who take that road do so for rational and healthy reasons, but it strikes me as similar to the face-life and boob job scenario, only times 10. If one feels they need to reconstruct their physical body and pump massive doses of hormones into their veins in order to be happy with who they are, I'd say they might have some deeper issues that need to be resolved rather than catered to. We constantly warn people, especially young girls, of the dangers of obsessing over their physical bodies; its hard to imagine being more obsessive than one who determines they must have their gender reconstructed in order to be happy with themselves.

This doesn't make sex-changes immoral, nor does it mean that those who have had them necessarily made the wrong choice. But it does make me think that those who cannot be secure in who they are and think they need massive surgery and hormones in order to be happy with themselves, have some deeper issues.
After all, if shaving took thousands of dollars, hormone treatments, multiple surgeries, and months to complete, I think most healthy men would just say "screw it" and learn to be happy with their beards.

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To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society. -Theodore Roosevelt

The point of the parallels was to highlight the flaw in the logic of "because there is nothing wrong with being the gender that you are, there can be no reason for you to change it." That is, if there is nothing wrong with the status quo, it shouldn't be changed.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

The part that you're missing, Eagle, is that it seems to be that one's gender identity is a result of brain structure. If one's brain structure is such that it is running best in a body with a high level of testosterone, yet is in a body that produces almost no testosterone but high levels of estrogen, there's a problem. It's a physical disorder. It's NOT a "choice" or a moral issue.

This is about the treatment of disease.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I think that in this situation everyone can agree that the best approach is the Barry Bonds approach, which is to inject massive amounts of hormones designed for livestock until you're able to rip a phone book in half.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Sorry you've been having IT problems. I was trying to get the full text of that first article, but I couldn't figure it out.

I'm a business student, so I ain't so bright these days...

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Clearly that is the best solution.

Of course, I prefer that my kids take the smart way about it. Tearing a phone book in half is easy, if you tear it down the spine.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I just have to post this advertising at the top of the page.

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"We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell." - Oscar Wilde