Thread: News You Won't Find In The Liberal Media Part III Ws Kids Can't Read

Originally Posted by ConLib

Quite true. Although I disagree that money is the root cause of this problem, I do agree that the arts are very important in graduating a student from public schools that have the abilities to excel in a university and in life after school.

Both parents working, and in some cases, seeing schools as nothing but a baby sitting service, has more to do with the problem than most anything else, IMHO. If more parents had the time, and desire, to participate in the school, enough money for the good teachers and those classes important to the best education, would be available.

Of course, there were no teacher unions when I graduated high school in 1960, but at the time, teachers were certainly not there for the money, but for the love of teaching children. Being in a very poor, very small town, we didn't have a lot of the arts, but spent a lot on various sports. Both my daughters were lucky enough to go to public schools in districts where parents were involved and money was there are the 'Arts and Crafts'. One daughter has a degree in Musicology and the other in Marketing.

If we can ever get our jobs back, and lower and middle class having enough time off, and rekindle the interest in seeing their children getting properly educated, the public schools will again be one of the best in the world. Until, that time, even money will not do the job. Certainly doing away with the teachers unions will only drive some good teachers into the private sector, lost forever to the eager young minds they may have reached.

Art may not be important to you, personally but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be funded. A good graphic designer can easily make $100,000 a year, in the right market. It is FAR more likely to graduate a graphic designer, than it is for a guy to make it to the NFL, but look at which program gets more funding.

My parents were high school graduates, and while my mother could show me how to bake a cake, and my father could should me how to make a table. Neither could teach me HTML, or how to build a sun tracker, for a solar array. My parents paid taxes, so that the State could teach me what I needed to know, that they themselves were lacking.

Teachers' Unions aren't the problem. The problem is that we vastly underfund institutions intended to build our future.

Until we fully invest in our future, you won't get the one you need.

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

hail Fishjoel,

matey, a stern teacher be fine, i've no problem with that.

i do not, nor would i ever, authorize a teacher to physically assault me own son or daughter.

i find the idear barbaric.

- MeadHallPirate

Well then I'd hope that you would take care to discipline your own son or daughter so that would not occur (and I'm not only talking about corporal punishment). If your kid is so unruly that they won't listen to the teachers at all then they can also be kicked out of school. After that happens they are closer to not being accepted at any school. At a certain point they will only be allowed to be in school for "troubled youth". At that point the future prospects of your child is looking very dim indeed.

What I don't understand is why you think a little physical pain is so barbaric. What do you think happens when a child is spanked? Do you think they are damaged for life or something? It's actually no big deal. My parents gave the school permission to spank me and then I'd get spanked at home for getting spanked at school. I was a squirrelly lad so I got spanked a good amount at home. Guess what happened to me? Or my two brothers? Or my sister? Nothing. My family is so even keel that you'd think we are weird. My wife thinks my family is weird because we never fight. I don't shy from my parent's touch. I love my parents and know they love me. I'm also about one of the goofiest bastards you'll ever run into. So what's the problem?

In a different context...think about how big of a joke the UN is because they don't do shit. None of the "problem countries" take the UN seriously or have any respect for it.

Originally Posted by KingNorthTX

Our school systems lack the capital to fully fund a diverse, efficient, learning system that provides a vast opportunity to become what you want.

MOST American Public School Systems teach to a standardized test...

Imagine being Chopin, and being stuck in a school without a music program, being Larry Bird and stuck at a school that only had a track program.

My local high school once boasted a great Shop and Ag. program, but both have been dismantled.

They weren't replaced with solar cell and wind farm technology classes, they just eliminate electives.

We aren't giving our children the opportunity to specialize in what they are individually good at. Such a system would require increasing taxes, substantially.

I really think schools are just poorly managed. We throw tons of money at schools but somehow they are always coming up short. What causes this to occur? I will agree that our school systems do not reward excellence. I've had a fairly personal experience with the school actually getting agry with my mom (who was a teacher) who helped some of her more motivated and talented kids to excel. So the school was actually trying to hold the kids down. Seriously, it's not about money. It's about the school culture in America.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

To be sure, there are responsibilities that needs to be addressed by the parents. Of course, all that doesn't matter if the school does not have any discipline. The parents aren't at the school, the kids are. You could have 7 out of 10 parents that teach their kids proper behavior and all that greatness but that still leaves 30% of the student population to disrupt everyone else. Then the other kids see this and they want to have "fun" too and mess around (they are kids after all). They see that the other kids get away with it and they advance in grade just the same as they do.

A little while ago there was discipline in the schools and this happened w/o the parents having to sit in every class and have student-teacher conferences every week.

Point being, you don't need to have any contribution from the parents to have discipline in the school and to hold kids to the standard.

I have to disagree - the contribution from the parents is critical. Without the support from home, discipline in the schools is completely ineffective. If you can't send a kid home knowing that there will be effective deterrents to misbehavior (and no, that doesn't mean kicking the shit out of the kid), there isn't much you can do, especially if the kid isn't worried about their grades.

We had a lady at the school where I taught - Miz White. She'd been there, oh, since Jesus was a lad. She knew the kids. She knew the kids' parents. She knew the kids' grandparents. And she'd let them know. "Dammit, Joseph, if you don't stop I'm gonna call your grandma!" and the like were frequently heard calls in the courtyard in Miz. White's voice. And, because Grandma was the disciplinarian, it worked.

It seems to me that we as a society are going to have to step back and re-evaluate what the hell we are doing as a society. Currently, we're abandoning our kids to be raised by television, daycare, and overstretched schools. Frankly, it isn't going to work.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

I really think schools are just poorly managed. We throw tons of money at schools but somehow they are always coming up short. What causes this to occur? I will agree that our school systems do not reward excellence. I've had a fairly personal experience with the school actually getting agry with my mom (who was a teacher) who helped some of her more motivated and talented kids to excel. So the school was actually trying to hold the kids down. Seriously, it's not about money. It's about the school culture in America.

Yes, our schools are incredibly poorly managed. I can't possibly agree with you more. But, I have to agree with Mr. Texas - we must reintroduce the arts, and vocational training to our schools. Multidisciplinary learning is vital to the long-term success of our youth.

Originally Posted by pramjockey

Yes, our schools are incredibly poorly managed. I can't possibly agree with you more. But, I have to agree with Mr. Texas - we must reintroduce the arts, and vocational training to our schools. Multidisciplinary learning is vital to the long-term success of our youth.

You mean once the kids can actually read and write and do simple math, right?

Originally Posted by tsquare

You mean once the kids can actually read and write and do simple math, right?

No, I mean as part of the instruction. Both music and construction arts (cabinetry, etc.) reinforce mathematic skills and retention, and use different parts of the brain to do so, to increase overall understanding at a deeper level. Graphic arts can be used to reinforce mathematic concepts. Reading and writing can be done as creative exercises as well as practical exercises, to increase retention and application. Graphic arts can be used to reinforce mathematic concepts as well.

It's all about exposing the kids to the concepts in as many ways as possible so they can apply them, incorporate them, and ultimately internalize them.

Originally Posted by pramjockey

I have to disagree - the contribution from the parents is critical. Without the support from home, discipline in the schools is completely ineffective. If you can't send a kid home knowing that there will be effective deterrents to misbehavior (and no, that doesn't mean kicking the shit out of the kid), there isn't much you can do, especially if the kid isn't worried about their grades.

I guess that came out in a way that I didn't intend it to. I didn't mean to say that parent contribution is critical. What I meant to say was that a school should be able to maintain discipline even if the parents don't. If the school suspends the kid from school you'll all of the sudden see the parents that don't care begin to care very much. Basically, a school has to hold a standard even if the parents don't. You can't continue to punish all the students because you don't want to address the issues with the "bad" students.

It seems to me that we as a society are going to have to step back and re-evaluate what the hell we are doing as a society. Currently, we're abandoning our kids to be raised by television, daycare, and overstretched schools. Frankly, it isn't going to work.

Exactly, it's one of the main reasons my wife decided to abstain from work once we started having children. It's harder in the finances but our kids are more important to us than the all mighty dollar. We didn't want our kids raised by strangers.

Originally Posted by pramjockey

Yes, our schools are incredibly poorly managed. I can't possibly agree with you more. But, I have to agree with Mr. Texas - we must reintroduce the arts, and vocational training to our schools. Multidisciplinary learning is vital to the long-term success of our youth.

Well, I actually wasn't disagreeing with that point. I was just saying was throwing money at the problem hasn't worked and there is already a ton of money already there.

Originally Posted by pramjockey

No, I mean as part of the instruction. Both music and construction arts (cabinetry, etc.) reinforce mathematic skills and retention, and use different parts of the brain to do so, to increase overall understanding at a deeper level. Graphic arts can be used to reinforce mathematic concepts. Reading and writing can be done as creative exercises as well as practical exercises, to increase retention and application. Graphic arts can be used to reinforce mathematic concepts as well.

It's all about exposing the kids to the concepts in as many ways as possible so they can apply them, incorporate them, and ultimately internalize them.

I take no issue with anything that you said except that you cannot reinforce mathematic concepts that don't already exist. The basics must come first.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I take no issue with anything that you said except that you cannot reinforce mathematic concepts that don't already exist. The basics must come first.

Sorry, I probably wasn't very clear - I mean reinforce as part of overall instructional process. They're introduced/discovered, then reinforced and practiced, then applied, expanded, used in novel situations, etc. This can be done in a variety of settings, from traditional instruction through multidisciplinary learning to great effect.

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

hail Fishjoel,

matey, a stern teacher be fine, i've no problem with that.

i do not, nor would i ever, authorize a teacher to physically assault me own son or daughter.

i find the idear barbaric.

- MeadHallPirate

I wouldn't either but I would most certainly want the transgression reported to me where my child would then get an ass whooping in proportion to the offense (or maybe just a loss of computer/t.v.time/phone access).

Originally Posted by tsquare

I take no issue with anything that you said except that you cannot reinforce mathematic concepts that don't already exist. The basics must come first.

You learn to measure and do math when you are doing carpentry. Mutli-discipline learning is the way to go in schools, it's what works outside of school.