Thread: How much should public school teachers make?

Originally Posted by chassisman

When I was HS grad age, I had accumulated some life skills. I knew a little about a lot of things, not a lot about very few things. IMO, todays 18 yr olds seem to know but one or two things, operating personal electronic devices and what the credit limit is on the card Daddy gave them is.
Skills I had at age 18:

1.working knowledge of required courses, not prep for the test knowledge, knowledge.
2. carpentry skills
3. auto and other mechanicsal skills
4. electrical/electronics skills
5. art skills
6. soldering/welding skills
7.drafting skills
8 musical skills
These are some that I can think of, the HS grads I meet today don't seeem to know stuff like I listed. I dount that many of the males could remove a spark plug or change the oil on the car they drive, let alone try to diagnose a problem if they encountered one.
I doubt most females of that age have homemaking skills, after all, who the hell is a homemaker any more?

I did stink at some subjects , never got algebra, but later learned trig because they hadn't invented CAD yet. I really feel sorry for the helpless little children they churn out of schools today. Without hiring someone to fix the probelms that stand in their way, they would cease to exist. If I would have called my father and said , Dad, I have a flat, he'd have said, why did you walk to a pay phone to call and tell me about it, you have a tire to change , don't you? If I would have called road service he would have revoked my driving priveleges permanantly

Some of the skills you're describing are somewhat outdated and new ones (should have) replaced them but you bring up a good point. I think a lot of it has to do with the way students are taught today.

I grew up in classes of 40 students and it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. That's not a matter of nostalgia for a time which never existed. Truthfully, we were just too afraid of being hit. Now teachers can't get control of classrooms because they're too afraid of being hit. We used to teach to the class and accept the slowest students would inevitably be left behind. Now we teach to the slowest students and accept everyone will march slowly toward a life of mediocrity.

School has become more about fun then education as districts invest in the latest technology. Classrooms have become havens for laptops, Nintendo Wiis, etc. and we allow students to carry smartphones, etc.

I think we're making the financial investment in our childrens' future. It's the program which proving unsuccessful. I think we need to remove all the distractions, install discipline, and go back to the days of rote memorization over iPad applications.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

I got A's in Math, English, Chemistry, Drafting, Wood Shop, Metal Shop, Government, Music, Foreign Language, etc. I grew up on a farm where I learned about engines, drive shafts, belts, lubrication, changing tires, etc. Even if I didn't get a graduate degree in college I would be very employable. Some of the people who went to school with me are doing menial jobs or are potentially unemployed right now.

So who's fault is it that they're unemployed? My classmates and I went through the same school system. Is it the school system's and teacher's fault that some of my classmates suck? Or is it the student's fault and possibly their parent's lack of attentiveness to their kid's education?

When someone sucks, is it the fault of the school or the individual or is that just the way things are sometimes through genetics?

When someone sucks, the problems is easy to identify........when the test scores of an entire school district suck, that problem is also easy to identify. I don't think anyone wants to argue with the stats that show that, educationally, the USA is falling like a brick compared to the students of other countries. So what are we going to do about that? Pay the teachers more and give them Lexus HC plans ?

Originally Posted by chassisman

When someone sucks, the problems is easy to identify........when the test scores of an entire school district suck, that problem is also easy to identify. I don't think anyone wants to argue with the stats that show that, educationally, the USA is falling like a brick compared to the students of other countries. So what are we going to do about that? Pay the teachers more and give them Lexus HC plans ?

When the whole district fails, its not the teachers or the students. When a team fails you fire the coach not the players.

Originally Posted by Donahue

Some of the skills you're describing are somewhat outdated and new ones (should have) replaced them but you bring up a good point. I think a lot of it has to do with the way students are taught today.

I grew up in classes of 40 students and it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. That's not a matter of nostalgia for a time which never existed. Truthfully, we were just too afraid of being hit. Now teachers can't get control of classrooms because they're too afraid of being hit. We used to teach to the class and accept the slowest students would inevitably be left behind. Now we teach to the slowest students and accept everyone will march slowly toward a life of mediocrity.

School has become more about fun then education as districts invest in the latest technology. Classrooms have become havens for laptops, Nintendo Wiis, etc. and we allow students to carry smartphones, etc.

I think we're making the financial investment in our childrens' future. It's the program which proving unsuccessful. I think we need to remove all the distractions, install discipline, and go back to the days of rote memorization over iPad applications.

Ha ha ha .....when they can pipe water thru iphones these little morons won't need a plumber on Xmas day.........any idea of when that technology will be coming down the pike? That iphone will get the kid a wrecker, (sooner or later), The jack and lug wrench will get it changed in about 10-15 mins if the little dolt doesn't have to read the owners manual just to find out what part of the car the jack is in......
Whatever they teach them with their smartphones, and electronic shit, I hope it will set them into an income that will allow them to hire people to do all the things that he/she ought to be able to do for themselves. I'll do it myself, wait on no one, and feel better because I'm using my grey matter instead of just my thumbs like some text-a-holic pinhead.

Originally Posted by chassisman

When someone sucks, the problems is easy to identify........when the test scores of an entire school district suck, that problem is also easy to identify. I don't think anyone wants to argue with the stats that show that, educationally, the USA is falling like a brick compared to the students of other countries. So what are we going to do about that? Pay the teachers more and give them Lexus HC plans ?

When the test scores of an entire school district suck, chances are the school district is loaded with children who come from families in poverty.

The US actually does well for educational success when you subtract out the students who are living in poverty. Thus, is the problem the teachers and the educational system? Or is the problem that we have such a high rate of poverty in the US, the richest nation in the world?

Fact Sheet: Education & Socioeconomic Status

Research indicates that children from low-SES households and communities develop academic skills more slowly compared to children from higher SES groups (Morgan, Farkas, Hillemeier, & Maczuga, 2009). Initial academic skills are correlated with the home environment, where lowliteracy environments and chronic stress negatively affect a child’s preacademic skills. The school systems in low-SES communities are often underresourced, negatively affecting students’ academic progress (Aikens & Barbarin, 2008). Inadequate education and increased dropout rates affect children’s academic achievement, perpetuating the low-SES status of the community. Improving school systems and early intervention programs may help to reduce these risk factors, and thus increased research on the correlation between SES and education is essential.

SES and Family Resources

Families from low-SES communities are less likely to have the financial resources or time availability to provide children with academic support.

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Children’s initial reading competence is correlated with the home literacy environment, number of books owned, and parent distress (Aikens & Barbarin, 2008). However, parents from low-SES communities may be unable to afford resources such as books, computers, or tutors to create this positive literacy environment (Orr, 2003).
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In a nationwide study of American kindergarten children, 36% of parents in the lowest-income quintile read to their children on a daily basis, compared with 62% of parents from the highest-income quintile (Coley, 2002).
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When enrolled in a program that encouraged adult support, students from low-SES groups reported higher levels of effort towards academics (Kaylor & Flores, 2008).

SES and the School Environment

Research indicates that school conditions contribute more to SES differences in learning rates than family characteristics (Aikens & Barbarin, 2008).

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Schools in low-SES communities suffer from high levels of unemployment, migration of the best qualified teachers, and low educational achievement (Muijs, Harris, Chapman, Stoll, & Russ, 2009).
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A teacher’s years of experience and quality of training is correlated with children’s academic achievement (Gimbert, Bol, & Wallace, 2007). Yet, children in lowincome schools are less likely to have well-qualified teachers. In fact, of high school math teachers in lowincome school districts 27% majored in mathematics in college as compared to 43% of teachers who did so in more affluent school districts (Ingersoll, 1999).
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The following factors have been found to improve the quality of schools in low-SES neighborhoods: a focus on improving teaching and learning, creation of an information-rich environment, building of a learning community, continuous professional development, involvement of parents, and increased funding and resources (Muijis et al., 2009).

SES and Academic Achievement

Research continues to link lower SES to lower academic achievement and slower rates of academic progress as compared with higher SES communities.

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Children from low-SES environments acquire language skills more slowly, exhibit delayed letter recognition and phonological awareness, and are at risk for reading difficulties (Aikens & Barbarin, 2008).
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Children with higher SES backgrounds were more likely to be proficient on tasks of addition, subtraction, ordinal sequencing, and math word problems than children with lower SES backgrounds (Coley, 2002).
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Students from low-SES schools entered high school 3.3 grade levels behind students from higher SES schools. In addition, students from the low-SES groups learned less over 4 years than children from higher SES groups, graduating 4.3 grade levels behind those of higher SES groups (Palardy, 2008).
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In 2007, the high school dropout rate among persons 16- 24 years old was highest in low-income families (16.7%) as compared to high-income families (3.2%) (National Center for Education Statistics, 2008).

Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Approximately 43.6 (14.3%) million Americans were living in poverty in 2009, up from 39.8 million (13.2%) in 2008

That's ~15% of people (and therefore kids, but its probably higher for kids since poor families tend to have more children) living in poverty. Since poverty tends to clump geographically, about 1-in-7 schools are trying to educate kids who basically have a severe disadvantage because of their socioeconomic background. Obviously there are case-by-case exceptions, but those are the large-scale statistics.

21% of children live below the poverty line, DT. That's the other number.

NCCP | Child Poverty

So 1-in-5 schools (if poverty 'clumps' itself like it is known to)are pretty much set up to do poorly on national testing because their students have an inherent disadvantage stemming from forces completely outside of the school system's control.


Compare that with Germany which has a poverty rate (when measured through similar measures) of ~2%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty..._United_States

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

So 1-in-5 schools (if poverty 'clumps' itself like it is known to)are pretty much set up to do poorly on national testing because their students have an inherent disadvantage stemming from forces completely outside of the school system's control.


Compare that with Germany which has a poverty rate (when measured through similar measures) of ~2%.
Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Absolutely. And, because of that, and the inability to adequately evaluate teachers, the teachers get nailed because their students are already set up to fail before they even set foot in a classroom.

But, of course, teachers are just lazy clods who only work 7 months out of the year, and spend their day sitting in the lounge eating donuts and drinking coffee and badmouthing students..

:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

When the test scores of an entire school district suck, chances are the school district is loaded with children who come from families in poverty.

The US actually does well for educational success when you subtract out the students who are living in poverty. Thus, is the problem the teachers and the educational system? Or is the problem that we have such a high rate of poverty in the US, the richest nation in the world?

Fact Sheet: Education & Socioeconomic Status


Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That's ~15% of people (and therefore kids, but its probably higher for kids since poor families tend to have more children) living in poverty. Since poverty tends to clump geographically, about 1-in-7 schools are trying to educate kids who basically have a severe disadvantage because of their socioeconomic background. Obviously there are case-by-case exceptions, but those are the large-scale statistics.

That poverty thing is old and tired. White kids from middle class neighborhoods are as dumb as a bag of hammers too, believe me, I've interviewd them.

Originally Posted by pramjockey

21% of children live below the poverty line, DT. That's the other number.

NCCP | Child Poverty

Maybe someone ought to pry the can of Keystone out of Dad's hand and send him to work.........if Dad is even around. I hope you and D1 will figure how many black fathers abandon their children into the equasion. Did someone make them do that too?

Originally Posted by chassisman

That poverty thing is old and tired. White kids from middle class neighborhoods are as dumb as a bag of hammers too, believe me, I've interviewd them.

True to an extent, chass. But, there are other factors - poor kids don't eat as well. Poor diet slows mental development. Hungry kids distract in the classroom, and can't focus. Poor kids are more likely to be exposed to things like lead (in paint, especially). Lead is a huge cause of developmental issues. Poor kids are more likely to be in single-parent households - less opportunity for parental involvement. Poor kids are more likely to be exposed to crime and criminal behavior.

The list goes on.

Now, concentrate those kids in a school, take away their supplies (since funding for schools is so focused now) and guess what happens?

Originally Posted by chassisman

Maybe someone ought to pry the can of Keystone out of Dad's hand and send him to work.........if Dad is even around. I hope you and D1 will figure how many black fathers abandon their children into the equasion. Did someone make them do that too?

I'm not making excuses for anyone. I want to break the cycle of poverty - not extend it.

Originally Posted by chassisman

Maybe someone ought to pry the can of Keystone out of Dad's hand and send him to work.........if Dad is even around. I hope you and D1 will figure how many black fathers abandon their children into the equasion. Did someone make them do that too?

So its the fault of the kid that the parents are irresponsible, or drunk, or working 2 or 3 jobs?

How much quality time do you think a kid gets at a home like that, nutritionally, educationally, and psychologically? Do you really think statistically those kids are going to be top students? Do you really think giving them a top-notch teacher is going to turn them into little einsteins?

No, the kid would rather hang out on the street corner with his friends whose parents are in similar situations, and blow off studies to go graffiti some train car. Maybe teachers should be chained to their students 24/7?