Thread: Planned Parenthood Bombed

Originally Posted by michael h

Euthanasia should be legal.

But the fact that it is not legal, certainly does not prevent it from happening. Nor would making abortion illegal prevent it from happening. Just as banning guns would not prevent gun ownership, banning drugs hasn't prevented drug use... so forth and so on... ad infinitum. Bans simply DO NOT work. Period. We're NEVER going to be rid of abortion. It has been around in one form or another since women first learned the early signs of pregnancy... and it will always be around as long a people continue to reproduce. That is a FACT. Instead of arguing to make it illegal... and therefore by default less safe... the smart money would be on trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with, and on adoption education and reform. Spending all of this time, energy and emotion on trying to ban something that isn't going away anyway is just wasteful.

Originally Posted by Unique POV

But the fact that it is not legal, certainly does not prevent it from happening. Nor would making abortion illegal prevent it from happening. Just as banning guns would not prevent gun ownership, banning drugs hasn't prevented drug use... so forth and so on... ad infinitum. Bans simply DO NOT work. Period. We're NEVER going to be rid of abortion. It has been around in one form or another since women first learned the early signs of pregnancy... and it will always be around as long a people continue to reproduce. That is a FACT. Instead of arguing to make it illegal... and therefore by default less safe... the smart money would be on trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with, and on adoption education and reform. Spending all of this time, energy and emotion on trying to ban something that isn't going away anyway is just wasteful.

I'm prochoice and I recognize that people will find a way to get one. I lived in Panama and I know people who got abortions there. (its illegal there)

Originally Posted by Unique POV

But the fact that it is not legal, certainly does not prevent it from happening. Nor would making abortion illegal prevent it from happening. Just as banning guns would not prevent gun ownership, banning drugs hasn't prevented drug use... so forth and so on... ad infinitum. Bans simply DO NOT work. Period. We're NEVER going to be rid of abortion. It has been around in one form or another since women first learned the early signs of pregnancy... and it will always be around as long a people continue to reproduce. That is a FACT. Instead of arguing to make it illegal... and therefore by default less safe... the smart money would be on trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with, and on adoption education and reform. Spending all of this time, energy and emotion on trying to ban something that isn't going away anyway is just wasteful.

Just because the bans don't work though, doesn't mean you give up on enforcing them. People are still murdered and the solution to that is to either imprison them for life or execute them. They quit killing people once they get their ability to roam free taken away from them and if the incarceration is strong enough, they don't commit any other crimes either. If abortion was illegal and the women who still then tried to get one were penalized, the number of women trying to get one would drop drastically.

Not to mention, it is already illegal for someone else to murder an unborn child ; should we get rid of that "ban" too? It seems to work as a good deterrent IMO. If women were stopped from doing the same to their own child that they were carrying, i think that would be a good deterrence from women going down the back streets.

Originally Posted by michael h

I'm prochoice and I recognize that people will find a way to get one. I lived in Panama and I know people who got abortions there. (its illegal there)

I wasn't talking about you specifically... but the whole pro-life movement in general. I know the response will be... but if we save ONE life it's worth it... and maybe a few less abortions will be performed. But how many young ladies will die trying some herb combination they read about on the internet? Or how many will kill themselves because they can't face the shame of being pregnant? How many will be mamed by back alley butchers? Again... the smart money is on preventing all of that misery by keeping abortion legal AND ALSO preventing abortion through comprehensive sex education and adoption education and reform. Legal, safe and rare is what we should all be aiming for.

No it isn't. Ultimately some women who aren't women enough to carry the child the bore and conceived may well die, trying. But ultimately they need to learn that even with precautions come responsibility. If they get pregnant, even with every safeguard being used, they need to step up and take care of the child that they bear.

Abortion being legal may be something you are aiming for but your collective speak on behalf of everyone is not inclusive of everybody's views.

If women do try some herb combination that they heard of online and die, then they probably aren't lives worth saving to start with. Especially if they happen to be carrying a child at the time and potentially kill the one who is dependent off them, in their womb, at the same time.

Originally Posted by Chloe

Just because the bans don't work though, doesn't mean you give up on enforcing them. People are still murdered and the solution to that is to either imprison them for life or execute them. They quit killing people once they get their ability to roam free taken away from them and if the incarceration is strong enough, they don't commit any other crimes either. If abortion was illegal and the women who still then tried to get one were penalized, the number of women trying to get one would drop drastically.

Not to mention, it is already illegal for someone else to murder an unborn child ; should we get rid of that "ban" too? It seems to work as a good deterrent IMO. If women were stopped from doing the same to their own child that they were carrying, i think that would be a good deterrence from women going down the back streets.

I don't see the sense in compounding a young woman's tragedy by criminally penalizing her. Do we really imagine that there is this culture of women out there who are using abortions as birth control? Oops, I'm pregnant again... better go get another abortion... glad I have a discount card because the tenth one is FREE! I'd bet the reality is that the vast majority of women who have abortions are profoundly affected by them. The few people that I have known that have admitted to having one never wanted another.

Somewhat irrelevant though. If it is illegal, i see no reason why they should get any more or less of a free pass than anyone else that breaks the law. If it is defined as murder, i am sure not about to start saying we allow certain murderers to go free due to the emotional stress they are under.

Originally Posted by Chloe

No it isn't. Ultimately some women who aren't women enough to carry the child the bore and conceived may well die, trying. But ultimately they need to learn that even with precautions come responsibility. If they get pregnant, even with every safeguard being used, they need to step up and take care of the child that they bear.

Abortion being legal may be something you are aiming for but your collective speak on behalf of everyone is not inclusive of everybody's views.

If women do try some herb combination that they heard of online and die, then they probably aren't lives worth saving to start with. Especially if they happen to be carrying a child at the time and potentially kill the one who is dependent off them, in their womb, at the same time.

Here's the thing. I'd be willing to bet that if you have known at least 50 women in your life that you think are decent people. You've worked with them, or went to school with them or whatever.. even though you don't know it... 2-3 of those women have had abortions. I'm guessing if you saw those women drowning... you'd find their lives worth saving... even if you DID know they'd had abortions.

Originally Posted by Unique POV

I wasn't talking about you specifically... but the whole pro-life movement in general. I know the response will be... but if we save ONE life it's worth it... and maybe a few less abortions will be performed. But how many young ladies will die trying some herb combination they read about on the internet? Or how many will kill themselves because they can't face the shame of being pregnant? How many will be mamed by back alley butchers? Again... the smart money is on preventing all of that misery by keeping abortion legal AND ALSO preventing abortion through comprehensive sex education and adoption education and reform. Legal, safe and rare is what we should all be aiming for.

I know most of the rational on both sides of the debate. I kowtow to the right of a human over what they do with their own body. Euthanasia, drug abuse, obesity, prostitution, abortion. I just don't attempt to diminish the life that is taken is a human life. The human life imho is most precious at its infancy ... certainly not something to be stained by prochoice insults and the questioning of its very humanity. The tough choices life throws at us, may cause one to take the current liberty and use it. I'd advise against abortion knowing its the best part of you no matter what hardships would be endured. I would have no desire to control this choice while I find it offensive. That would only display the worst part of me.

Originally Posted by michael h

I know most of the rational on both sides of the debate. I kowtow to the right of a human over what they do with their own body. Euthanasia, drug abuse, obesity, prostitution, abortion. I just don't attempt to diminish the life that is taken is a human life. The human life imho is most precious at its infancy ... certainly not something to be stained by prochoice insults and the questioning of its very humanity. The tough choices life throws at us, may cause one to take the current liberty and use it. I'd advise against abortion knowing its the best part of you no matter what hardships would be endured. I would have no desire to control this choice while I find it offensive. That would only display the worst part of me.

On this we can mostly agree. The only difference for me being that I would neither advise for or against abortion. I would just be (and have been) as supportive as I could regardless. I think abortion is a tragedy. I just don't see the sense in compounding the tragedy.

Originally Posted by Unique POV

Here's the thing. I'd be willing to bet that if you know at least 50 women that you think are decent people. You've worked with them, or went to school with them or whatever.. even though you don't know it... 2-3 of those women have had abortions. I'm guessing if you saw those women drowning... you'd find their lives worth saving... even if you DID know they'd had abortions.

They wouldn't be committing an illegal act in the midst of me trying to save their lives. I assume the logic you're going with here, is that if abortions were outlawed, women would go into back streets to get them done, right?

If so, i wouldn't bother to save their lives in the middle of it if i happened to be walking by some place, on the corner of the road, because the whole thing got botched up. In the specific relevance of the conversation and context of the discussion, i wouldn't bother to save their lives if they are busy murdering their unborn child.

And that gets to another point about being "pro life" The whole label of pro life and pro choice is such utter crap. Even for a Catholic like myself, i don't value every life and i don't really care about things like the death penalty. I don't have any major views on the topic one way or another but i am not going to cry over some rapist or kidnapper or murderer who gets the needle. Same way if someone is having their own child butchered out of their womb and is dying because of it i wouldn't care about her, either. I'd do what i could to save the unborn life but not so much about the mother who tried to end the chance of the life being brought into the world.

Originally Posted by Chloe

They wouldn't be committing an illegal act in the midst of me trying to save their lives. I assume the logic you're going with here, is that if abortions were outlawed, women would go into back streets to get them done, right?

If so, i wouldn't bother to save their lives in the middle of it if i happened to be walking by some place, on the corner of the road, because the whole thing got botched up. In the specific relevance of the conversation and context of the discussion, i wouldn't bother to save their lives if they are busy murdering their unborn child.

And that gets to another point about being "pro life" The whole label of pro life and pro choice is such utter crap. Even for a Catholic like myself, i don't value every life and i don't really care about things like the death penalty. I don't have any major views on the topic one way or another but i am not going to cry over some rapist or kidnapper or murderer who gets the needle. Same way if someone is having their own child butchered out of their womb and is dying because of it i wouldn't care about her, either. I'd do what i could to save the unborn life but not so much about the mother who tried to end the chance of the life being brought into the world.

No. What I was getting at is that good women have abortions too... and that quite likely there are a few women that you know and that you genuinely think of as good women who have indeed had an abortion.

You said I'd find their lives worth saving...i don't think i would if abortion was illegal, and especially with the services at their disposal in this day and age to take care of a child. In decades past it was one thing but now the state practically gives you everything you need anyway. Not to mention family, friends etc. In this century, with all the help afforded to women there is no reason a woman should terminate the life growing inside of her. (That is not going after victims of rape and medical emergencies though).

That was to your point in post #371. I take it you don't object to the fact that we shouldn't be giving emotional compassion to murderers then, were this to be a crime? Also, are you in support of laws that make it illegal for someone else to kill the unborn child a woman may carry but allow for it to remain lawful when the mother does it?