Geez. What a little fantasy world you have created for yourself there. Do you really think Iraq is going to become this stable secular democracy, practicing american capitalism and free market economics? Do you really think Iraq will have the sovereignty to pursue its own foreing policy goals, or even domestic goals. What if they pursue oil nationalism? What if they pursue nuclear energy? You think the US will allow their puppets in the green zone (or as al-sistani poited out they are all in London because they are too afraid to live in Iraq) to move iraq towards goals like that? What if Iraq demands the withdrawal and dismantling of all permanent US military bases? What if Iran and Iraq form a nuclear alliance?

Where do you seee kurdish/shiite/sunni reconciliation coming from? The Kurds in the north already fly the flag of kurdistan and refuse to fly the iraqi national flag.... The Sunnis will not stop the insurgency as long as there are Shiiites being protected by the USA. The violence in Iraq will be exported to many other nations for years to come.

The democratization of iraq.... you make me laugh.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

The four factors listed, except the second one, are not limited to Iraq. What I mean is that the democratization of Iraq will do very little when it comes to political and economic progress in other Muslim-majority countries. Allowing our occupying army remain on Iraqi soil will, on the other hand, fuel fear of Western dominance, the Iraq "jihad," and anti-US sentiment in other countries.

Of course, if we manage to truly democratize Iraq in a reasonable timespan, that could much to improve the opinion of the US in the minds of many Muslims, and it could possibly reduce the intensity of fighting in Iraq. Also, just leaving Iraq in the state it is will have Middle Eastern propagandists jumping down our throat for breaking and not fixing it.

Still: if we don't just "cut and run," how long will we be there? Under what circumstances can we consider Iraq "democratized?"

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

Excellent points Luap. I think it's not a matter of "cut and run" or "stay the course". It's always seemed to me that it's a disservice to any of these discussions to just simply boil it down to those two options.

In the end, I think perceived personal security and economic stability will be the key to fixing current situation in Iraq (well, duh!). That's the easy part to mention. The hard part is how to provide that goal when you have insurgents (those that are pissed off enough at the situation to want to be part of the violence), and terrorist organizations (homegrown and outside) who's goal is to cause instability and feed sectarian violence. Will the Iraqi army/police force be able to rise above the sectarian strife to be able to provide that stability? If the rest of Iraq can achieve the same level of stability and security that the Kurds enjoy up north, I think Iraq may stand a chance. But I keep coming around to what level will the Iraqi army/police be able to provide this, even after the coalition turns over responsibility?

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Fortunatus sum! Pila mea de gramine horrido modo in pratum lene recta volvit!

I wish there was more to the declassified report, but this will do. I don't see any great revelations in the report. It seems to be simple common sense.

Good points include: we've damaged the leadership and disrupted the operations of Al-Qaeda; if the democratically-elected government of Iraq can stand on its own, the greater political participation on the part of Iraqi citizens (and also, successful democratic reform efforts in Muslim countries) would tend to counteract the Islamic extremists; and, vulnerabilities within the jihadist movement have emerged that could be exploited.

Bad points include: the global jihadist movement is spreading and adapting to counterterrorism efforts; new jihadist networks and cells - with anti-American agendas - are increasingly likely to emerge; the Iraq war has increased the number of terrorists and deepened the resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world; fighters with experience in Iraq are a source of future leaders for the global jihadist movement; and, anti-US and anti-globalization sentiment is on the rise and fueling other radical ideologies.

It seems clear to me that on balance, the attack on Iraq and our continued presence there has had a negative impact upon our efforts to fight terrorism, and that we are not one bit safer today than we were on the day before we attacked Iraq. What an incredible and stupid waste.

That's pretty much my feeling about it. We started well on this war on terror, but then took this left turn with Iraq.

__________________
Fortunatus sum! Pila mea de gramine horrido modo in pratum lene recta volvit!

And of course NEITHER of these is an accurate quote.

And why do you suppose that?

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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.

No reply from varrus, eh?

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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.

[quote=Slon;808002]Yeah yeah, "catch and release", catch'em now and throw them back for later.

You catch them, send them back to Mexico and they are back here before you get the paperwork done.

Kill them. All you'll have to kill is a few, and then it will stop.

You must be a Catholic. Had your kids raped lately? Now wonder you're a sympathizer. We got Catholic priests here in the USA molesting children and helping illegals across the border. They are just child molesting traitors, they too, should all be shot.

Drop the bomb on the whole region, starting with Mecca!

Anyone that takes power in Iraq is going to be against America. The Iraqis support attacks on Americans!

It's not those that disagree with the war that I respect the least. It's those that say a plan has failed and offer no solution. But I reject the contention ,by the media, that the war is going poorly. Let's put aside the reality that plus 95% of the media vote democrat and there's still the reality that humans have always been more fascinated with death and destruction. This is why that car wreck that mangled 4 people a few miles from where you work makes the front page. For many of them it's simply good business to post the stories that twist reality into something they believe can be more marketable.

On the contrary I believe you are willfully ignoring pertinent information.

Do you realize that Iraq is only part of the war on terror? We're fighting an ideology that wants to convert or kill us. And don't tell me this garbage about less than 1% of the muslims are like this because it'd be bs. If the muslim community desired the end of these terrorists they'd have done something about it. Now we have to do something about it.

You're a liberal. Once you're honest with yourself you can begin to see things as they are.

Do you believe everything you see on tv? In that case there's a bridge i'd like to sell you.

On the contrary; remind me how many branches of govn the dems control? The only polls that matter are the ones in November. Oh and when you presume to speak for the majority of people that only solidifies my opinion that you're a liberal.

What in the world are you talking about? Is this what you think the end game entails? These islamo terrorists are out to kill every single infidel! Don't you get that? We used a nuclear bomb the last time we were serious about winning a war against that kind of mentality. And you know what; it worked. While I shudder at the thought of having that option be on the table it must be recognized nonetheless.

Varus

Any doubts now as to what this guy is here for?

__________________
Fortunatus sum! Pila mea de gramine horrido modo in pratum lene recta volvit!

Advocating things such as this, how are you any different than a fanatical suicide bomber?

Is it that you believe in Jesus as the son of God, whereas Muslims only believe in Jesus as a prophet?

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne