and we get lots of cheap baubles.
Anyway, we can't leave until we finish securing and building 10 or so permenant US military bases

You can always attempt to rewrite history, but that won't make it true.

__________________
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

President George W. Bush, 8-5-2004

Carolina Politics Online

THIS IS REAL HOPE AND CHANGE!

You cannot lose what you never really had, as JFK said the trumpets will sound the bands will play the roses will be strewn in our path at the outset..but what then?

Bush never saw this coming, that is, the fact that religion appears to trump good sense, national will and identity or age old regional hate, which is where this really is. Is he culpable? Yes and No, I am sure there where these at least I hope so that said as much before hand. Did he believe that we could turn that around? Probably, but he’s a dreamer and as Lawrence of Arabia said; “give me a man who dreams with his eyes open”. I don’t fault Bush anymore in this sense than I fault Roosevelt for some of our missteps in ww2. BUT he didn’t see what needed to be done after the terrorism started. He allowed Bremer to have his say which we see was clearly wrong.

I feel that sectarian violence will not abate, and at this point there is little we can do to allay it. The Iraqi army? Well, I see them as an effective tool IF the politicians will let them be, the refusal to take on the militias is key. They will not crush the militias while the time is ripe…….so in effect, the Iraqi gov, is enabling them and we can stay there forever, unless the Iraqi gov. takes action it won’t matter. So in effect it is lost. Don’t gulp, I have made statements here to fore that the situation had spun out of control.

In short, there’s nothing wrong with our will, it’s the Iraqi government, that is the debilitating factor as they will not upset the apple cart, not seeing that a unified Iraq requires that they stamp out any and all factions opposed to representative government.

As far as creating violence that was not there before we went in, true to an extent, but what abut saddams violence? In any event he may have had control but the shia uprising for example, in which we took no part etc. does not allay the fact that there was violence there to begin with, the revolution in our country was not absent violence. It takes that to shake out the true identity of a nation, if its feasibale..maybe the partition of those lands never was feasible, as they couldn’t see where it would lead, if Iraq turns into a terrorist heaven then it probably would have in any event as soon as any strongman or his government became to weak to oppose it. Maybe we have just accelerated events. Who knows?

At this point , remaining there, is pointless imho.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Exactly it has gotten us cheap goods sold in American stores, manufactured in China by people working for slave wages, resulting in many manufacturing plants closing down across the U.S. and the loss of tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs all across our country, which the leftists unions never stop crying about. It has also financially and militarily strengthened the Communist regime in that country that has been an ally of both North Korea and Russia, none of which are friends of the U.S.A.

__________________
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

President George W. Bush, 8-5-2004

Carolina Politics Online

THIS IS REAL HOPE AND CHANGE!

I remember when people used to care about protecting American products with these things called Protective Tariffs. Now it's a "global economy". Global economies didn't exist before the 90's apparently.

__________________
Is our children learning? -George W. Bush

"I think—tide turning—see, as I remember—I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of—it's easy to see a tide turn—did I say those words?"—Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006

"[T]he illiteracy level of our children are appalling."—Washington, D.C., Jan. 23, 2004

As long as it takes to complete the mission.

Yeah pulling out of Somalia is what inspired Bin Laden to see the U.S. and as weak and feeble and incapable of fighting.

So you support unlimited welfare as long as it's in military form for foreigners?

__________________
Is our children learning? -George W. Bush

"I think—tide turning—see, as I remember—I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of—it's easy to see a tide turn—did I say those words?"—Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006

"[T]he illiteracy level of our children are appalling."—Washington, D.C., Jan. 23, 2004

Nope.

Though much of what you said is true there are some basic tenents I disagree with. First I believe capitalism and freedom go hand in hand. By enabling the Chinese market to operate within a capitalistic ideology the general standard of living in China has increased dramatically. Also by consuming Chinese products our ties to China have been strengthened.

Varus

Sort of like we'll keep potentially innocent people prisoner as long as it takes?



What exactly is being achieved?

__________________
"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

or we're keeping potential terrorists off the streets.

Varus

Everytime I think about the options we have in Iraq, it annoys me to no end. If we leave now, we accomplished nothing and good, fine, young men and women died for nothing. Yet there is no timeframe for staying. Say, we handover every single province to the local police and military. How long until sectarian strife, fueled and promoted by outside influences (states and non-states) tear appart the country again? How long do we stay to prevent that? Can we prevent that at this point? Are we prepared to stay there as long as we did in Vietnam? What is the Middle Eastern landscape going to look like in 5, 7 or 10 years when we pull out? Will a stable Iraq even matter by then?

__________________
Fortunatus sum! Pila mea de gramine horrido modo in pratum lene recta volvit!

I'm guessing around 70 maybe 80% of south vietnamese would find your comments ignorant and insulting. If you disagree I suggest reading about some of the attrocities committed by the north, targetted at civilians.

Look over the number killed in that conflict. 2 million for the VietCong and 2 million for the US Army.. Seems it broke even....

By the way are suggesting invading Vietnam was a good idea...