not all..the power of an opponent in this case is not apparent and a great deal more nefarious and in fact a shadow....as you said, this is not exactly a national struggle where in you can stop all communications from one nation to another and expect success..they are spread out and know who to sue the system….


the multiplicity of the the threat and the multitude of applications regards communication, makes this a must.....the mail is one of the most dependable forms of non intrusive communication available right now..to assume they willnot use it, is well, being in denial........I send letters to my cousins in Sicily all the time, about a 2 week turn around, but due to the sheer number of the mail, items, its almost unapproachable as a medium for interception regards instructions being sent and received by elements that want to do us harm....they are smart..and will adapt.....we need to be on guard....if that mans opening the mail of individuals based on some of the same circumstances that we wire tap them then, I think that’s prudent.

Are you assuming that the gov. will just open peoples mail willy nilly?

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Are you assuming that the gov. won't open peoples mail willy nilly?

So what are you saying? That it is okay to do it because it was done before?

__________________
If a neocon whines about big government wealth redistribution, just ask him what he thinks about the portion of that big government that sends aid to Israel.

no I don't…...in fact to this day, there has not been ONE case made regards wire taps being carried out on an individual that had not been under due suspicion for actions that would have earned it...so far its all supposition based on “what ifs”….

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

A threat which is "not apparent" and "a shadow" is by definition not enough of a danger to merit any abrogation of our civil rights. That seems so self evident that I can't really believe we're even having this discussion. In ordere to justify these measures I expect to see a concrete and well defined danger and a way to determine when the "war" is over. As defined (or NOT defined) by this admin the war can continue indefinitely against any country or person they pick with no measurable way to determine victory or defeat and no way to put a face on the enemy. That's just an open invitation to abuse.

The mere fact that reading mail or intercepting phone calls or some other outrage might be an effective tool against terrorists is NOT sufficient reason in itself to allow those things. All kinds of things which would make good antiterrorism measures are forbidden by our constitution - so far.

I am assuming that the current admin, just like all politicians before them will abuse power whenever the benefit to themselves outweighs the consequences. The founders assumed the same.

__________________
A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I will reiterate;
its called precedent and you know that…….hence my mention of stare decisis...

if you feel that precedents have no place in the judicial process, then you are denying precedents in every case…period…its all up for grabs…..and everything will be argued over and over and over…precedent is recognized by one and all in the judicial community for 100 years… and in the end, IF you feel that the conditions are so much different that the precedent has no connection, than I urge those who feel that way to take it to the courts…BUT until then the law stands….

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

We have precedent for genocide in this country, does that make it ok?

__________________
"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

That's because we're not allowed to find out. Duh..

The founders supposed no such thing or they would not have vested the exec branch that is the pres with the powers he had been given.,,,,there are checks and balances…..of course….


not until the cases that have made it such are made visible..due to national security concerns we may not be in the position to do so..what? are we to publicize each success after a prgm is enacted in public to provide sppt.? and ask for the public to render a conclusion as to whether its fair and legal? under that premise we would hamstrung and each and every initiative would be a one fer...one time and out as we would then put the enemy on notice that this particular area is our focus...

IF you don't trust gov. to make these decisions no matter who's in office, what can I say........for instance ..Bush briefed select members of the senate intelligence committee 3 year ago regards wire taps..they kept silent as I think they realized that this was prudent.....now that it is out they digress into criticism that is not supported by the majority of the public..that was a loser BUT we lost the ability to implement this wiretapping on the whole we woke up the T's as to what we were doing...thats hamstring ANY admin. one day they'll be a dem in the white house...we will hamstring his ability to exercise those powers too for political gain…you cannot run a war based on a popularity campaign subnmitted to a public vetting in each and every stance…..…sorry, if that were so the week after Tarawa, or the battle of the bulge, FDR would have been out on his ass….which would have been absurd.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Duh the aclu already went to court and tried to stop it, with zero empirical evidence regards wrong doing….

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

go ahead and read it. Hopefully he pays my phone bill with tax dollars from California liberals.

A civil suit filed by various journalists and academics who routinely phone middle east residents is in the courts now. Plaintiffs won in district court and the admin has appealed. An appeals court is deciding whether the program will be terminated now or allowed to continue during the appeal process.

__________________
A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

okay lets just drag the bottom for equivalency…… please that’s such a specious comment what can I say?….can we be real please…?.....the dems did a damn good job demanding that Alito and Roberts respect stare decisis regards roe vs wade...is that a good enough example or?

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

good deal.........and lets see the source and lets see how this plays out, the verdict is not in.....IF they were in fact tapped with out cause they should get damages, absolutely, ....IF not, then there ya go....that’s how the system works....

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

FDR also put the Japanese in internment camps. Does that mean Bush can do it, too?

__________________
If a neocon whines about big government wealth redistribution, just ask him what he thinks about the portion of that big government that sends aid to Israel.