Hugo's stealing again. - Page 3 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Andrewl · #31 (**permalink**) 01-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Pray tell, how does the President legislate by decree?

That's what Hugo is working on.

Matt

CIA black sites, rendition flights, domestic spying, targeted assasinations, domestic propoganda, lying to the nation to start a war, and just tonight, totally ignoring the will of the American public. You can't get much more anti-democratic and authoritarian than that.

Andrew

Tim · #32 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowboyTed

This thread is funny.

Chavez is running the country for his people (thus his popularity). He open a recent history book and while corruption is rife in Latin America, it was world corporations which were paying...

His stance has not been mild mannered... But either has the respouse (which has been idiotic from the Bush Administration). They definately knew of a coup to get rid of him and might hand a in it..

Venezula is an Oil country. And as usual takes precedence over non Oil countries. Chavez doesn't have a army or the wish to invade neighbours. He has never threatened the Americain people. He stated openly that he thinks the Bush Administration are assholes(not a exclusive club). He threw out companies which openly brided there way in to exploit venezula resources. He reversed stupid privatisation polices which have not worked in the country (Look at Railtrack in UK they did the same).

He has shared the wealth with the poor. And to top it off he has one of the fastest growing GDP in the world...

And he doesn't give a royal rats ass what some foriegn goverment thinks of him and is not afriad to say it.

So would I vote for the guy... Not prefect by any means but better than his predessors

Well, you are close - this thread isn't funny, but this POST certainly is.

Nothing is more absurd than the spectacle of left-wingers who become infatuated with dictators who hate Americans and denounce capitalism. Of course, these same leftists would never, under any circumstances, actually live in these dictatorships. They enjoy the results of evil capitalists while forming fan clubs praising these clowns who have done all they can to keep their own people in poverty.

Give his wealth to the poor! That is garbage.

MattLarson · #33 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewl

CIA black sites, rendition flights, domestic spying, targeted assasinations, domestic propoganda, lying to the nation to start a war, and just tonight, totally ignoring the will of the American public. You can't get much more anti-democratic and authoritarian than that.

Andrew

Typical. The thread is about Chavez, but as usual you can only trumpet "Bush Bad! Bush Bad! USA Bad! Bush Bad!"

Sad.

Matt

camille z · #34 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

So, you have no problem taking the property of others without compensation?

Would you have a problem if the US were to seize Citgo in response?

Matt

who are the "others"? how they got the property?
you think that 3 or 4 foreign investors have more rights than 25 million venezuelans? who gave these people the right to "own" the wealth of 25 million venezuelans? the 25 million venezuelans have the natural right to own every piece of their land for their own benefit and interests. you are always defending the right of a very few people (rich corporations) against the rest 99.99% (specially of foreign investors against the native population). don't you know that the privatization of public companies is a disaster of huge proportions in latin america? why? because the main goal of private corporations is to make profit no matter what (in argentina it was a luxury to call from one city to another because the telephone company was in private hands). That is why Argentina went down the drain because everything was privatized and the WB and IMF pushed the governemet to cut social expenses, cut cut cut... they just care about how they can squeeze every penny out of every pocket, they only cared about the profits.

Tim · #35 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by camille z

who are the "others"? how they got the property?
you think that 3 or 4 foreign investors have more rights than 25 million venezuelans? who gave this people the right to "own" the wealth of 25 million venezuelans? the 25 million venezuelans have the natural right to own every piece of their land for their own benefit and interests. you are always defending the right of a very few people (rich corporations) against the rest 99.99%. don't you know that the privatization of public companies is a disaster of huge proportions in latin america? why? because the main goal of private corporations is to make profit no matter what. That is why Argentina went down the drain because everything was privatized and the WB and IMF pushed the governemet to cut social expenses, cut cut cut...in favor of these private corporations who did not care about social problems , they only cared about the profits.

Your comments regarding Argentina are not only wrong - they are exactly the opposite of the truth. At the beginning of the 20th century, when Argentina had free markets and was an "evil" capitalist nation, it was one of the ten wealthiest nations in the world. Under the left-wing dictatorships that began with the Perons, the economy collapsed. It has never fully recovered. The attempts to re-introduce some free market policies have been partly successful, but they have not reversed the decline.

If you are going to promote an anti-capitalist agenda and defend leftist dictators, you have to at least attempt to use facts and data to support your views.

camille z · #36 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

Your comments regarding Argentina are not only wrong - they are exactly the opposite of the truth. At the beginning of the 20th century, when Argentina had free markets and was an "evil" capitalist nation, it was one of the ten wealthiest nations in the world. Under the left-wing dictatorships that began with the Perons, the economy collapsed. It has never fully recovered. The attempts to re-introduce some free market policies have been partly successful, but they have not reversed the decline.

If you are going to promote an anti-capitalist agenda and defend leftist dictators, you have to at least attempt to use facts and data to support your views.

Argentina was the poster child of the IMF and WB. 13 years latter it was bankrupt to the bone and in a chaotic situation never seen before, Argentina had never seen such despair and agony. I remember how people used to cook and fry dogs and cats because they could not afford a piece of bread for their children, suicide rates went up by 200%....google Argentina and read the history instead of Ronald Reagan-Margaret T. propaganda

Donkey_Left · #37 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

Your comments regarding Argentina are not only wrong - they are exactly the opposite of the truth. At the beginning of the 20th century, when Argentina had free markets and was an "evil" capitalist nation, it was one of the ten wealthiest nations in the world. Under the left-wing dictatorships that began with the Perons, the economy collapsed. It has never fully recovered. The attempts to re-introduce some free market policies have been partly successful, but they have not reversed the decline.

If you are going to promote an anti-capitalist agenda and defend leftist dictators, you have to at least attempt to use facts and data to support your views.

How woefully misinformed.

The IMF recommended policies drove Argentina nearly to the brink of economic ruin. In 2001 Argentina defaulted on it's debt payments. The IMF, for years, as Camille said, urged Argentina to privatize privatize privatize, and cut cut cut. This plunged many Argentinos into poverty, and is the reason that they have a gini index of .52.

What Camille doesn't know, or forgot to mention, is that the IMF also convinced Argentina to peg it's Peso to the US Dollar. To KEEP it there, Argentina had to borrow billions of dollars FROM the IMF. This only increased their foreign debt. Argentina was forced to roll over it's debt.

In 2003, Argentina cut a hard deal with the IMF. Using a nice big gift of oil money from Chavez, Argentina payed off the debt it owed to the IMF. It is still mired in debt to the Paris Club, and owes Chavez a favour, but they are by no means in such dire straits as they were in 2001 under Menem.

Kirchner claims that the rapidly increasing economy (one of the best south of the Rio Grande) is due to ignoring, or even directly contradicting IMF recommendations, and all evidence points to this being true.

Another thing that is important to remember. Not all leftists in Latin America are the same. On one side, you have the the extremist, close minded, radical leftists: Chavez, Morales. On the other you have progressive, open minded, future-oriented leftists: Kirchner, Lula Da Silva. Somewhere in the middle sit Correa, and, despite his past, Ortega.

Kirchner =/= Chavez.

Tim · #38 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

How woefully misinformed.

The IMF recommended policies drove Argentina nearly to the brink of economic ruin. In 2001 Argentina defaulted on it's debt payments. The IMF, for years, as Camille said, urged Argentina to privatize privatize privatize, and cut cut cut. This plunged many Argentinos into poverty, and is the reason that they have a gini index of .52.

What Camille doesn't know, or forgot to mention, is that the IMF also convinced Argentina to peg it's Peso to the US Dollar. To KEEP it there, Argentina had to borrow billions of dollars FROM the IMF. This only increased their foreign debt. Argentina was forced to roll over it's debt.

In 2003, Argentina cut a hard deal with the IMF. Using a nice big gift of oil money from Chavez, Argentina payed off the debt it owed to the IMF. It is still mired in debt to the Paris Club, and owes Chavez a favour, but they are by no means in such dire straits as they were in 2001 under Menem.

Kirchner claims that the rapidly increasing economy (one of the best south of the Rio Grande) is due to ignoring, or even directly contradicting IMF recommendations, and all evidence points to this being true.

Another thing that is important to remember. Not all leftists in Latin America are the same. On one side, you have the the extremist, close minded, radical leftists: Chavez, Morales. On the other you have progressive, open minded, future-oriented leftists: Kirchner, Lula Da Silva. Somewhere in the middle sit Correa, and, despite his past, Ortega.

Kirchner =/= Chavez.

Woefully misinformed indeed - and you managed to ignore almost all of my post.

The IMF is hardly a capitlaist tool. They hold to left-wing vision and conservative tools, which often produce failure - or disaster. I am not a fan of the IMF - no conservative is.

The disaster in Argentina goes back to the Perons. The IMF banadaid was a failure. That has nothing to do with the transformation needed for the economy to work.

Donkey_Left · #39 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

Woefully misinformed indeed - and you managed to ignore almost all of my post.

The IMF is hardly a capitlaist tool. They hold to left-wing vision and conservative tools, which often produce failure - or disaster. I am not a fan of the IMF - no conservative is.

The disaster in Argentina goes back to the Perons. The IMF banadaid was a failure. That has nothing to do with the transformation needed for the economy to work.

The economy IS working.

And why blame everything on the "left wing dictators" starting with the Perons?

What about the Generals?

camille z · #40 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

The economy IS working.

And why blame everything on the "left wing dictators" starting with the Perons?

What about the Generals?

Yeah,let's talk about those fascist "catholic monks" called the Junxta Militar and their 1976 coup ...the argentinian income dropped to a 1930's level in 1977 and never recovered..and poverty increased from 6% (1975) to a whooping 37% by 1982...wow...how evil was Peron and Evita..hehehaha! you got to laugh!

MattLarson · #41 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by camille z

who are the "others"? how they got the property?
you think that 3 or 4 foreign investors have more rights than 25 million venezuelans? who gave these people the right to "own" the wealth of 25 million venezuelans? the 25 million venezuelans have the natural right to own every piece of their land for their own benefit and interests. you are always defending the right of a very few people (rich corporations) against the rest 99.99% (specially of foreign investors against the native population). don't you know that the privatization of public companies is a disaster of huge proportions in latin america? why? because the main goal of private corporations is to make profit no matter what (in argentina it was a luxury to call from one city to another because the telephone company was in private hands). That is why Argentina went down the drain because everything was privatized and the WB and IMF pushed the governemet to cut social expenses, cut cut cut... they just care about how they can squeeze every penny out of every pocket, they only cared about the profits.

The "others" are companies that came in to Venezuela, at the request of Venezuela, and built the infrastructure Hugo plans to seize.

Now, Hugo sees that infrastructure, and thinks "hey, I could take all that, and then there would be more money for my aggrandizement!".

Oh, yeah, and while he's at it, he wants to get rid of term limits and grant himself the power to legislate by fiat.

How do you spell dictator? C-H-A-V-E-Z.

Matt

Andrewl · #42 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Typical. The thread is about Chavez, but as usual you can only trumpet "Bush Bad! Bush Bad! USA Bad! Bush Bad!"

Sad.

Matt

Im just looking for insight into how it feels to live under what you hate so much, Matt.

Andrew

MattLarson · #43 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewl

Im just looking for insight into how it feels to live under what you hate so much, Matt.

Andrew

I'll let you know if it ever happens, Andrew. Can we quit trying to change the topic now?

Matt

camille z · #44 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

The "others" are companies that came in to Venezuela, at the request of Venezuela, and built the infrastructure Hugo plans to seize.

Now, Hugo sees that infrastructure, and thinks "hey, I could take all that, and then there would be more money for my aggrandizement!".

Oh, yeah, and while he's at it, he wants to get rid of term limits and grant himself the power to legislate by fiat.

How do you spell dictator? C-H-A-V-E-Z.

Matt

you need to learn what Colonialism is. I know they don't teach you that in grade school but. You know how much wealth these companies have taken out of Venezuela? Do you have any idea? really. do you? ratio:1 fruit basket to the elite that is in power that allows this, 1 rotten apple to the Venezuelan people and 100,000 dollars to the companies. The same story happens in Africa all the time, look at Nigeria and their oil fields, 1 fruit basket to the elite that is in power and allows this, 1 rotten apple to Nigerian people, 100,000 dollars to the foreign oil companies. Please, don't fool yourself

MattLarson · #45 (**permalink**) 01-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by camille z

you need to learn what Colonialism is. I know they don't teach you that in grade school but. You know how much wealth these companies have taken out of Venezuela? Do you have any idea? really. do you? ratio: 1 apple to Venezuela and 100,000 dollars to the companies. The same story happens in Africa all the time, look at Nigeria and their oil fields, 1 apple to Nigerian people, 100,000 dollars to the foreign oil companies. Please, who are you trying to fool here?

You do realize we are talking not about oil, but about electrical distribution here, right?

Electricidad de Caracas, the target of Hugo's proposed theft, generates and distributes electricity to homes and businesses. The company 's rightful owners and investors spent millions to build the infrastructure to do this, and now Hugo wants to steal that infrastructure and make it his own.

Maybe the deal should be Hugo takes over the power production and distribution in Venezuela, and AES comes down there and takes back all the equipment they installed?

Od should the US seize the equivalent value of Citgo assets here and convey them to AES as compensation?

Matt

Bookmarks
Digg	del.icio.us	StumbleUpon	Google

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode