Secret Court to Govern Wiretapping Plan - Washington Post, Jan. 17, 2006:

Excellent. This program should have been conducted under FISA all along.

Ah, that wonderful word - oversight!

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Curly

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

- Hermann Goering

good, now try them for not having it under the court all along.

Will you name one court case that has deemed it unconstitutional? I mean, surely several years into it, there would be at least one upheld case.

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"I miss the days when they made toys that could kill a kid."
- Jerry Seinfeld

Its not unconstitutional so much as the data mining is simply illegal. The phone companies which participated in it are being sued, and so is the government. I mean sure, we could go after the conspiracy against rights, but 5,000 dollars per record, and a year in jail, seems a far greater deterrent.

In fact here is a link to the law US CODE--TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

Actually Jot there was a case in Detroit. To my knowledge it has yet to be appealed.

However I would ask those that are applauding this just what they think will be the result. From every source I have heard there is no expectation that there will be fewer wiretaps

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

You can paste any law you want, but the fact is we don't know enough information to determine if it is illegal or not; however, there have already been nearly 20 challenges against the NSA [which the NSA has won] and only 1 that has been upheld [which was the ruling of Anna Taylor which will mostly like be appealed]. So if it is so illegal, why aren't there a boatload of cases against the NSA that have been upheld? Nearly 20 cases for the NSA .. I'm gonna bet your wrong.

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"I miss the days when they made toys that could kill a kid."
- Jerry Seinfeld

I'm applauding it, but not because I think there will be fewer wiretaps. Hell, I wouldn't mind if there were more wiretaps ... just as long as they are conducted under FISA, with judicial review, the way they could have been - and should have been - done from the very beginning.

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Curly

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

- Hermann Goering

This is the case I mentioned, and the 6th Circuit Court stated in October that the administration could continue the surveillance while it appeals the case of Taylor [it was also stayed immediately after the Taylor ruling]... even many experts have claimed that the ruling would not surive an appeal.

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"I miss the days when they made toys that could kill a kid."
- Jerry Seinfeld

I'm not applauding anything here. I'm just tired of all these people yelling 'it's illegal' or 'it's unconstitutional'; yet, not one case has been upheld [with the exception of one which I've already explained].

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"I miss the days when they made toys that could kill a kid."
- Jerry Seinfeld

Well clearly the administration thought it might be on shaky grounds and decided giving in might be the better path.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

No self-respecting court would ever believe that there is probable cause to spy on almost every American citizen. Further with regards to wiretaps the only reason for the Bush administration to avoid FISA is because they lack enough proof to violate the rights of Americans. They're worried because they know they've committed crimes.

Alright, unless 200 million Americans are terrorists, I have more then enough information. Let me put that another way so you can understand that. Unless every adult American in the United States is working for the enemy, there is no justification for this. Perhaps you don't understand where the burden of proof lies in America. It is not the citizens requirement to prove why he needs to maintain his rights, its up to the government to prove cause to violate them.

USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

Something is wrong here. There is something missing here.

It's an allowed secret court because it deals with cases that fall under "agent of foreign power" criteria, but this surveillance is being conducted domestically.

No, I don't see any good news in this. There is a missing piece in this puzzle.

White House reverses course on spy program - [love that "reverses course" ]

Hmmmm. The same month that the appeal was supposed to be heard, the government does a 180 and puts the program under FISA. Ya think maybe they saw the writing on the wall?

However, if I rob banks for a year and then stop, I still broke the law while I was robbing banks, right? Even though I stopped?

Indeed.

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Curly

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

- Hermann Goering

FISA has, since 1978, allowed domestic surveillance. The problem with the NSA domestic spy program is that it operated outside of FISA; i.e., no judicial review.

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Curly

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

- Hermann Goering

I'll answer your question last, but; My Opinion on the issue.

1. I notice they are still calling it a "warrantless" wire tapping. That was the problem, I heard or saw no one really complaining about the wire-tap, rather, that the law required a warrant but the BUsh Adm refused to follow that part of the law. It appears they have seen the error of their ways.

2. Since they are now apparently doing so, the pressure for impachment may be diminished. Perhaps they are simply "dodging the bullet"

3. Your question and point. Since they had thrown a blanket of security on the issue, do you really think we would have known about any lawsuits regarding the matter??? Quoting National security, the cases couldn't even be BROUGHT to court.