Boycott of Israeli academe backed by UK union. - Page 3 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Peace Now · #31 (**permalink**) 06-02-2007

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Originally Posted by moon

Peace Now;

I repeat;

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Which other of the countries you hold up as potential fig-leaf material has occupied another's territory illegally for so long, has practised ethnic cleansing, apartheid and murder with such impunity, and staggers under such a long list of United Nations condemnatory resolutions ignored ?
Put another way, which country deserves to be boycotted as much as the Zionist State ?

Provide an answer , please, or accept that Israel is a rogue State which cannot sensibly be permitted to enjoy the same interrelationships as law-abiding UN member States.

But I already have. Here, this was my previous post, I guess you didn't really read it:

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Originally Posted by Peace Now

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Which other of the countries you hold up as potential fig-leaf material has occupied another's territory illegally for so long, has practised ethnic cleansing, apartheid and murder with such impunity, and staggers under such a long list of United Nations condemnatory resolutions ignored ?
Put another way, which country deserves to be boycotted as much as the Zionist State ?

Which other countries have occupied other people's territory? Why Britain itself would be one. I'll ignore all the other countries which occupy other people's land (like China in Tibet) and concentrate on the UK since it is British academics who claim the moral high ground in their threat of boycotting Israel. Britain has for centuries occupied countless lands all over the planet. And even if we ignore their continued presence in places like the Americas and islands in the Indian Ocean, we can always look at Northern Ireland which is still controlled by the United Kingdom.

And as for racism and murder, you don't have to go very far. There's plenty of that all over the Arab world. Just look at Darfur where Black Africans are being exterminated through rape and murder by Arab Sudanese. Or the ethnic cleansing in other Arab countries of minorities like the Kurds or of different religious groups.

But let's ignore all that. Let's ignore for a minute whether Israel is really the worst human rights violator in the world (as you claim), worse than China, Russia, Iran, Syria Saudi Arabia, and all the rest. Let's ignore for a minute the lack of academic freedom in all the countries surrounding Israel and all their human rights violations.

My argument is that the method of punishing students and professors based purely on their nationality is not the way to go about expressing your abhorrence for the actions of any regime. Let's imagine for a moment that we weren't talking about Israel, but of some other country.

How does punishing students and professors from that country going to help the situation. You're punishing exactly those you should be engaging the most in order to change that country's policies. And how can you claim to be defending academic freedom when you deny people the very academic freedom you claim to defend.

I just find it morally reprehensible and counterproductive to stifle academic discussion, and deny people the very rights you claim to defend in some misguided attempt to end discrimination.

How can they justify discriminating against academics based purely on their nationality??? That is discrimination! And all in the name of academic freedom!!!

And By the way, when I said that we should ignore for a minute Israel's supposed crimes, I didn't mean that you should try to forget about it. It's just a figure of speech. I wanted to put that aside for a minute since we're obviously not going to agree about that or whether or not Israel's human rights record is worse than countries like Russia, China, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, or even the UK with its centuries of imperialism and oppression.

I just wanted to discuss the questionable morality and uselessness of punishing academics purely based on their nationality. Will discriminating against them really further the cause of academic freedom? Of course, that doesn't really interest you at all. You, moon, merely hate Israel and want to see it destroyed, and you will support anyone who attempts to delegitamize the Jewish state. You couldn't care less about academic freedom or you would be outraged at the arrests of academics in Iran, or the lack of freedom of expression around the Arab world.

moon · #32 (**permalink**) 06-02-2007

Peace Now;

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But I already have.

No, you haven't, you've simply thrown in a few nasties in the hope that they will detract from the sins of the Zionist serial criminals.

Are you even aware of the list of UN Resolutions outstanding against Israel ?
We'll get around to posting it after you've identified another country with a longer one.

Slon · #33 (**permalink**) 06-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Rakkasan

sorry i dont hate jews....or muslims...i dont hate anyone for their race or ethnic background

Me neither. Good thing we're not discussing Jews or Muslims, but Israel.

Rakkasan · #34 (**permalink**) 06-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Slon

Me neither. Good thing we're not discussing Jews or Muslims, but Israel.

sure we are

Agentorange · #35 (**permalink**) 06-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Peace Now

Which other countries have occupied other people's territory? Why Britain itself would be one. I'll ignore all the other countries which occupy other people's land (like China in Tibet) and concentrate on the UK since it is British academics who claim the moral high ground in their threat of boycotting Israel. Britain has for centuries occupied countless lands all over the planet. And even if we ignore their continued presence in places like the Americas and islands in the Indian Ocean, we can always look at Northern Ireland which is still controlled by the United Kingdom.

Um, I think the difference is that certainly Britain has in the past controlled vast stretches of the world. The operative word here is past, we don't do so now and it is the situation now that the British academics are responding to. Don't misunderstand me I think it's precisely the wrong thing to do and I agree with pretty much everything else in your post. The other point I would make is that this is a bunch of academics and not part of British government policy, on the other hand the continued growth of settler towns etc in the West bank is part of Israeli government policy

Peace Now · #36 (**permalink**) 06-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Agentorange

Um, I think the difference is that certainly Britain has in the past controlled vast stretches of the world. The operative word here is past, we don't do so now and it is the situation now that the British academics are responding to. Don't misunderstand me I think it's precisely the wrong thing to do and I agree with pretty much everything else in your post. The other point I would make is that this is a bunch of academics and not part of British government policy, on the other hand the continued growth of settler towns etc in the West bank is part of Israeli government policy

Silly me. I thought you guys were still sitting in Northern Ireland. Doesn't the UK still occupy that place and have settlers and military installations there? Also the "past" is very relevant. If the past had nothing to do with the now then Palestinians wouldn't still be complaining about something which happened over 40 years ago.

Also, I agree that the Israeli government has built settlements. But not Israeli academics. Why punish them for something most of them oppose? Besides, how can anyone justify denying Israelis their academic freedom based on their nationality? Isn't that discrimination? I thought those British academics said they wanted to defend academic freedom and all that...

Slon · #37 (**permalink**) 06-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Rakkasan

sure we are

Yep, we are. It would be nice if you stayed on topic instead of bringing up Jews.

Agentorange · #38 (**permalink**) 06-03-2007

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Originally Posted by Peace Now

Silly me. I thought you guys were still sitting in Northern Ireland. Doesn't the UK still occupy that place and have settlers and military installations there? Also the "past" is very relevant. If the past had nothing to do with the now then Palestinians wouldn't still be complaining about something which happened over 40 years ago.

Indeed we are still in Northern ireland, but we don't occupy it. It is actually part of the the UK and there are three salient points to consider

1) The majority of the people in NI wish to be part of the UK ( though not a huge majority. If memory serves I think it's 10 mp's pro UK and 8 mps' pro union with Ireland ), do the majority of people in the west bank want to be part of Israel ?

2) All of the people of NI are full UK citizens with all the rights and responsibilities that that implies. Are all of the people in the west bank full Israeli citizens ?

3 ) As a result of 2) all of the people in NI have the vote and may participate in the UK democratic/electoral process both at national level and local level. Do all of the people in the west bank have the vote and can they participate in the Israeli electoral process at national and local level ?

It is worth pointing out that in 1973 a plebiscite was held in NI to determine it's future status, 98.9% of voters voted in favour of the status quo..that is remaining part of the UK ( though in fairness I should point out that only about 58% of people bothered to vote )

brief history of NI here:
Northern Ireland: History - K12 Academics

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Also, I agree that the Israeli government has built settlements. But not Israeli academics. Why punish them for something most of them oppose?

I agree with you completely, like I said earlier I don't agree with the decision

Josepha · #39 (**permalink**) 06-03-2007

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Originally Posted by moon

Josepha;

Lol. There are a great many dispossessed and bereaved Palestinians who are validly anti-Jewish. Your implication that there is no such valid feeling is incorrect.

In time, when the blood has ceased to boil, they might understand that it is Zionism, not Judaism, which has ruined their lives, but until then they have every right to feel as they feel.

As did the nazis - which is pretty much why the israelis feel the way they feel.

Josepha · #40 (**permalink**) 06-03-2007

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Originally Posted by moon

It doesn't matter to the machine-gunned civilian whether his murderer hated him or not.

Not in Darfur, or Iraq, or any gay bar! Hence no reason for hate law legislation. Not sure what this has to do with boycotting professors. Isn't that rather like refusing to talk to Iran until they do everything America wants them to do?

moon · #41 (**permalink**) 06-03-2007

Peace Now;

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Also, I agree that the Israeli government has built settlements. But not Israeli academics. Why punish them for something most of them oppose? Besides, how can anyone justify denying Israelis their academic freedom based on their nationality? Isn't that discrimination? I thought those British academics said they wanted to defend academic freedom and all that..

OK, I assume that you now realise that there simply isn't a longer list of international condemnations than that levelled at Israel. Let's make fully sure that you accept that because it is a cornerstone of the academic outrage under discussion.

Is there another State, other than Israel, which has a longer list of outstanding UN resolutions of condemnation ?

There isn't , of course, and I'm just trying to get you to fess up to that fact.

The two most important gains that an invader can make, in order to annex his invaded territory, are the co-operation of his victims and an accepted legitimacy to his intent. ( I'll direct you later to the author of a new critique on the failure of Imperialism in the modern world )

Clearly, the Palestinians are never going to co-operate. No matter how much the weight of bribery showered upon Abbas and the ghosts of the PLO there will always be Hamas, and those of similar resistance, to prevent any victory for the Zionists in that area.

Failure on the first count then, in the hope that I am not being over-optimistic.

Secondly, the overwhelming condemnation of the Zionist's actions, by the UN in particular, our legal yardstick, denies Israel legitimacy. Simply, when the world court states that your brand-new boundary annexation wall is illegal you are paddle-less in strange creeks. That's without the dozens of previous anti-Zionism rulings.
Of course, it's general knowledge that Zionism gives the law the finger in all matters relating to fair play for Palestinians. This requires that other means are applied in order to further erode the legitimacy of the Zionist plan.
Such is an academic boycott.

An academic boycott denies Israel legitimacy and that's what it's all about.

While we can't all help in the vein that Rachel Corrie tried , and was killed for, we can , all of us, deny Israel legitimacy in what it does. It doesn't matter if the UKs incumbent government fawns over Israel under instruction from its American/Zionist overlords, nor Australia, Canada, whoever. They are already tainted meat. An academic boycott is a far more legitimate boycott than shamed governments could mount anyway.

EDIT;
Author;
Eric Hobsbawn
Globalisation, Democracy & Terrorism
Publication due July 5th 2007.

moon · #42 (**permalink**) 06-03-2007

Josepha;

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As did the nazis - which is pretty much why the israelis feel the way they feel.

Pro-Zionists are notorious for their fumbles; - 'Israelis' are not all jews. Remember ? Lol.

Well, not yet anyway, and if the sensible people of this world have their way they never will be. Vive la boycott.
If it happens.

And moving beyond the symbolism-

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Trade and Industry Minister Eli Yishai said Sunday he will hold talks this week with Israeli business attaches from across the world and other professionals about the threat of a British boycott.

The minister was refering to a proposal for imposing a boycott on Israel which the United Kingdom's public services union UNISON will consider during its annual conference in mid-June. This proposal followed the decision Wednesday by a British lecturers union to back a boycott of Israeli academic institutions.

According to the proposal, UNISON, which has some 1.4 million members, will urge other British unions to follow its lead and cut off all economic and cultural ties with Israel.

Histadrut sources said the impression they have received is that UNISON will vote in favor of the boycott. The conference will be held June 19-22 in Brighton.

If approved, the boycott would have a significant practical, and not just symbolic, impact, given that the union enjoys large economic influence in Britain.

Yishai to hold talks on industry's response to U.K. boycott - Haaretz - Israel News

Frank · #43 (**permalink**) 06-04-2007

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Originally Posted by Peace Now

This boycott reeks of hypocrisy.

Interesting isn't it, that these British academics (who I'm sure are morally impeccable and not biased in any way) discuss boycotting only Israel in the name of academic freedom.

And while they're taking this "courageous stand" for academic freedom, what better way than to deny academic freedom to students and professors who happen to be from Israel purely based on their nationality.

Interesting argument coming from a man defending a nation that discriminates against it's Arab citizens on the basis of their race or ethnicity if you will....

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Why is it that they don't discuss boycotting other countries whose policies they don't agree with, like the US, Russia, or China?

Maybe because Russia and China are not occupying another peoples territory? As well in Russia a Gentile is allowed to marry a Jew! This is not the case in Israel!

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Maybe those countries are too big and boycotting them would actually mean risking some kind of consequences, it's much easier picking on a small country like Israel.

A small nation wholeheartedly supported by the world's lone superpower and a massive oppressive lobby to boot! Do not worry American Zionists are already looking for ways to punish these academics FOR DARING TO STAND UP TO ISRAELI APARTHEID...

Alan Dershowitz Threatens to Sue UK Academics - News Briefs - Arutz Sheva

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These enlightened British academics aren't going to boycott countries with far worse human rights records and where academics face far worse oppression like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Zimbabwe, are they?

British academics have a history of opposing apartheid regimes; it is merely Israel's turn on the proverbial chopping block! However, I do agree they should focus on Zimbabwe as well considering the ethnic cleansing campaigns of that nation.

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No, that would be wrong. Let's single out just one country and ignore their reasons for implementing strict security measures

You mean like an Israeli warships launching 7000+ shells on a Gaza beach strip in a civilian area? How about the Israeli use of children as human shields in military operations? Is this a 'strict security measure?'

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israelis accused of 'human shields' tactic

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and let's ignore other countries doing far worse all over the world. Let's just single out Israel which is the only country in the region which actually gives all its citizens academic freedom including Arab Israelis (Palestinians who live within the Israeli borders and who have equal citizenship).

“Arabs have less right to pass their citizenship to their children than do Jewish Israelis or even foreign Jew; and they also face administrative barriers obstructing them from buying most housing or land - mostly seized from Arabs after 1948 - on the same basis as Jews. They pay the same taxes as Jews but benefit far less from state employment and from funding for education, health and other basic amenities”

SOURCE: “Israeli-Arabs always the outsiders” - By: Ed O Laughlin - The Sydney Morning Herald - March 2006

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Palestinians are not Israeli citizens

They are living under Israeli military occupation...

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and they would be the first to say that they live outside of Israel. Nobody is denying that they are living in harsh conditions, but in fact the conditions of Palestinians living in surrounding Arab countries are often far worse.

Refugee camps are not pleasent places! I think you are forgetting that they are in those places BECAUSE of Israel...

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Remember, Israel handed Gaza and most of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority. If they would stop the constant terror attacks against Israel it wouldn't be forced to take security measures which make life in the Palestinian territories more difficult.

Here is what Israel offered to the Palestinians...

http://gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Also remember folks that the territories are deemed 'occupied' by the UN Security Council which means Israel has NO RIGHT to claim the territories as their own province...

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By the way, perhaps someone should remind these British academics that Britain itself is currently engaged in two wars in that very same region, and responsible for displacing tens of thousands of people and disrupting their former way of life (as it was under Saddam or the Taliban). Not to mention their long history of imperialism and oppression which is the reason for many of the conflicts in the Middle East.

Yeah and Israel was largely responsible for providing the false intelligence to prompted the coalition into the Iraq war and Israel was the same nation that tried to incite the U.S. to invade Iran in 2003!

washingtonpost.com: Israel Shares Blame on Iraq Intelligence, Report Says

Sharon says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria - Haaretz - Israel News

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I guess this is their idea of defending academic freedom and the free exchange of ideas. By denying students and professors these very rights purely based on their nationality.

Well maybe when the racist religious Apartheid state of Israel stops discriminating against Arabs; they will get a break?

varrussword · #44 (**permalink**) 06-04-2007

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Originally Posted by Frank

Interesting argument coming from a man defending a nation that discriminates against it's Arab citizens on the basis of their race or ethnicity if you will....

Maybe because Russia and China are not occupying another peoples territory? As well in Russia a Gentile is allowed to marry a Jew! This is not the case in Israel!

A small nation wholeheartedly supported by the world's lone superpower and a massive oppressive lobby to boot! Do not worry American Zionists are already looking for ways to punish these academics FOR DARING TO STAND UP TO ISRAELI APARTHEID...

Alan Dershowitz Threatens to Sue UK Academics - News Briefs - Arutz Sheva

British academics have a history of opposing apartheid regimes; it is merely Israel's turn on the proverbial chopping block! However, I do agree they should focus on Zimbabwe as well considering the ethnic cleansing campaigns of that nation.

You mean like an Israeli warships launching 7000+ shells on a Gaza beach strip in a civilian area? How about the Israeli use of children as human shields in military operations? Is this a 'strict security measure?'

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israelis accused of 'human shields' tactic

“Arabs have less right to pass their citizenship to their children than do Jewish Israelis or even foreign Jew; and they also face administrative barriers obstructing them from buying most housing or land - mostly seized from Arabs after 1948 - on the same basis as Jews. They pay the same taxes as Jews but benefit far less from state employment and from funding for education, health and other basic amenities”

SOURCE: “Israeli-Arabs always the outsiders” - By: Ed O Laughlin - The Sydney Morning Herald - March 2006

They are living under Israeli military occupation...

Refugee camps are not pleasent places! I think you are forgetting that they are in those places BECAUSE of Israel...

Here is what Israel offered to the Palestinians...

http://gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Also remember folks that the territories are deemed 'occupied' by the UN Security Council which means Israel has NO RIGHT to claim the territories as their own province...

Yeah and Israel was largely responsible for providing the false intelligence to prompted the coalition into the Iraq war and Israel was the same nation that tried to incite the U.S. to invade Iran in 2003!

washingtonpost.com: Israel Shares Blame on Iraq Intelligence, Report Says

Sharon says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria - Haaretz - Israel News

Well maybe when the racist religious Apartheid state of Israel stops discriminating against Arabs; they will get a break?

Everything you've mentioned about the Israelis the arab have done times 100. Had it not been for the weapons we sold Israel prior to the 3 day war there might not be any jews alive. Of course we know that would satisfy the nazi sympathizers who blame the jews for everything bad that's ever happened to them.

Varus

Americano · #45 (**permalink**) 06-04-2007

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Originally Posted by varrussword

Everything you've mentioned about the Israelis the arab have done times 100. Had it not been for the weapons we sold Israel prior to the 3 day war there might not be any jews alive. Of course we know that would satisfy the nazi sympathizers who blame the jews for everything bad that's ever happened to them.

Varus

3-day war?