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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
Slon Slon is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
It has nothing to do with free speech.

The funny thing is that, had the guy only been flying the Mexican flag, there'd have been no problem. The problem arose because the guy flew the American Flag below the Mexican flag...
Both of which, I presume, were his property. What exactly is unjust about what he did?
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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
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sumyd sumyd is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
Both of which, I presume, were his property. What exactly is unjust about what he did?
He broke the law. ----oh wait, thats right, I forgot in your little paradigm breaking the law is not unjust. I forgot, sorry.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
Slon Slon is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumyd View Post
He broke the law. ----oh wait, thats right, I forgot in your little paradigm breaking the law is not unjust. I forgot, sorry.
Law and justice are not always the same thing. Is your position that which holds that the law is always morally right/just?
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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
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soot soot is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
Law and justice are not always the same thing. Is your position that which holds that the law is always morally right/just?
A law doesn't need to be just. It only needs to be legitimate.

In this case:

The law is in accord with reason. It is both logical and rational to understand why a people would not want a symbol of their national soverignty subjugated to that of another.

The law is directed at the common good. It takes into account the rational assumptions advanced under the argument which supports that the law is in accord with reason.

The law was enacted by a legitimate ruling authority. Unless you care to prove that the government of the United States of America is illegitimate, a premis for which I doubt a rational argument can be made.

Therefore, the law itself is legitimate (lex legalis), and worthy of enforcement.

You may not like it, and you may not consider it "just". But as a legitimate law to have to obey it.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
Slon Slon is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by soot View Post
A law doesn't need to be just. It only needs to be legitimate.

In this case:

The law is in accord with reason. It is both logical and rational to understand why a people would not want a symbol of their national soverignty subjugated to that of another.
That hardly makes it a reasonable law. I want free prostitutes, money and cars. It's rational and logical to understand why I, and others, would want this. Does that mean we should become totally socialist to obtain that?

How about unpopular comedians? Few want to hear them. Let's ban them, huh?
Quote:
The law is directed at the common good. It takes into account the rational assumptions advanced under the argument which supports that the law is in accord with reason.
How exactly does banning the flying of one flag over another on someone's private property serve the common good? All I see it doing is denying someone their property rights in part.
Quote:
The law was enacted by a legitimate ruling authority. Unless you care to prove that the government of the United States of America is illegitimate, a premis for which I doubt a rational argument can be made.

Therefore, the law itself is legitimate (lex legalis), and worthy of enforcement.

You may not like it, and you may not consider it "just". But as a legitimate law to have to obey it.
So if they passed a law forcing everyone to kill themselves, you would be on here telling everyone "it's legitimate so you have to obey it" right before blowing your head off?
__________________
A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
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sumyd sumyd is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
Law and justice are not always the same thing. Is your position that which holds that the law is always morally right/just?
a society without laws would be completely immoral and unjust.

a society where the laws are not enforced with proper punishments will lead to chaos and civil disorder...which is what has occurred in this instance....and which, I believe, will continue in greater numbers if the mexicans want to continue to press the issue.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
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sumyd sumyd is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
...How exactly does banning the flying of one flag over another on someone's private property serve the common good? All I see it doing is denying someone their property rights in part.

....?
the law was broken and not upheld, so vigilantism broke out.

More will come.

If you don't like it, change the law.

you arguments are not based on societal relevance - and therefore are rather irrelevant.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2007
Slon Slon is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumyd View Post
a society without laws would be completely immoral and unjust.
What does that have to do with what I said?
Quote:
a society where the laws are not enforced with proper punishments will lead to chaos and civil disorder...
Where did I say that no laws should be enforced? I'm saying this law in particular should not exist.
Quote:

which is what has occurred in this instance....and which, I believe, will continue in greater numbers if the mexicans want to continue to press the issue.
So chaos and civil disorder will ensue if people are allowed to hang Mexican flags above American ones?
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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Steve Steve is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
Both of which, I presume, were his property. What exactly is unjust about what he did?
Familiarize yourself with the law regarding this, and get back to me...
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Steve Steve is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
That hardly makes it a reasonable law. I want free prostitutes, money and cars. It's rational and logical to understand why I, and others, would want this.
Of course; you can't get a date or a job and, once you get your prostitute, she probably won't want to sit on the handlebars of you Schwinn...
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
Alex Alex is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

From what I understand, the 'law' only applies to government agencies. Therefore, the Bar owner didn't actually break any law. He is free to fly any flag he wants over private property.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Miscreantgnomie Miscreantgnomie is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

i like alex signature i hope he makes more
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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goober goober is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumyd View Post
....I sure hope the bar owner puts his Mexican flag up there again, I want to see his store over run with a thousand plus angry vets tearing the whole friggin flag pole down on his store.
Let's just hope the bar owner has exercised his 2nd Amendment rights and has the firepower sufficient to deal with such a wave of trespassers and vandals.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Steve Steve is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Let's just hope the bar owner has exercised his 2nd Amendment rights and has the firepower sufficient to deal with such a wave of trespassers and vandals.
Sure, 'cause that'll land his ass in jail faster than anything else. Simple trespassing and vandalism fall short of the requirements for the use of deadly force...
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
sumyd's Avatar
sumyd sumyd is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
.... I'm saying this law in particular should not exist.
too bad. if you felt the same way about speed limits, I guess you would think its fine for those who broke the speed limit to go unpunished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
So chaos and civil disorder will ensue if people are allowed to hang Mexican flags above American ones?
Obviously there are some (ie vets) who feel very strongly about our flag and will perform acts of vigilantism if the law is not upheld...if the mexicans want that to occur...let them.
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"I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience he will bring to the White House."
Hillary Clinton on McCain

"I believe the right approach begins with the proposal put forward by…Senator McCain."
Barack Obama on McCain

"Higher taxes will only lead to poverty dependents."
sumyd
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